[wagurto]

aitraaz that's terrible what city is that? so I can take a note! I won't visit it not even for turism.

[aitraaz]

lol, well, I'm referring to Italy, so you can refer back to jdp's post, and by all means (I'm sure you have) do visit for tourism...

The only correction I'd make to jdp's post would be to change the average salary from 1000-1500 € (often less) to 1000-1500 € (often less) - meaning, i know lots of people in the 200 € to 800 € range (per month), I'd have to say at least from what I've seen thats the average. If you get lucky and find space in one of the few studios that do have work, you can go with 1000 € + (and maybe after 10 yrs of pure slavery you'll get to 3000 €), otherwise, expect to make that 500 € per month and move in with the family (with single studio apartments rent starting at 800 € you're screwed). As concerns your fiancée, your sex life will be transfered to your automobile so make sure you've got a comfortable one...

Now, if you want to work independantly as an architect, thats a whole other fun issue. Recently, the 'left' government has passed a series of 'liberalized' laws concerning professional practice (wow how the left just loves the free market these days ), and one of the approved provisions removes the minimum fixed percentages that architects could earn for any given project. (DECRETO-LEGGE 4 luglio 2006, n.223)

I believe, before this provision, an architect by law could ask for a minimum of between 10-12% of the total costs for any architectural project. That's been removed, so, following 'free market', 'liberalized,' principles, its totally up to the architect to decide.

While at first glance it may look nice, these laws tend to favour powerful people and corporations & slaughter smaller architects and businesses, who, in an extremely competitive market will most likely be forced to drop their fees below the previously established 10-12% just in order to survive.

Ironically, when these 'liberalized' professional laws were passed (not only for architects but for quite a few professional categories), many people took to the streets, but from the architects, not a peep...

Typical. Sorry for the bitch nature of this post....

[aitraaz]

---

[Leonardo]

Today I called my friend to see if she still had the job
According to her, other people found out how much she was getting pay and complained threating to leave. So they lower her salary to 55k and she quit as she felt used.

Now she is working in another place that is paying her 26/ hour but it only equals to 45k a year becuase she only works 4 days a week. The best part is that she is happy and loves her day off.

As a side note, it has never been in my mind to become rich by working for somebody else. So as soon as I get my licese, I'll be out on my own, this the biggest reason why I'm more interested in learning from successful people than getting pay a few K more a year.

But it's hard stuff.

leo

[acquiesse]

10-12%

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In our libral UK economy, try 3-4%!

The practices I worked at had to build a lot of horrible industrial sheds to afford the few nicely designed buildings...

[goncalo]

Here in Portugal the situation is very bad.

We are the second country in the Europe with more architects vs population.

... i have my office, but there is a lot of offices making very cheap projects, so the people are use to that, so is hard to don´t make a great discount, or the clients go to others architects... they are so many around here.

Here in Portugal most of the architects who finish the studies gonna work for free... this is not a joke, and if a architect in one office earns more then 5 euros for one hour is very nice...

I receive a lot of people asking for work, every week i receive a portfolio...

[Maximus3D]

Perhaps some archviz modelers will loose work due to this procedural modeling tech.

http://www.vision.ee.ethz.ch/~pmueller/ ... /Documents

/ Max

[deadalvs]

Perhaps some archviz modelers will loose work due to this procedural modeling tech.

http://www.vision.ee.ethz.ch/~pmueller/ ... /Documents

/ Max

another reason why i study at this school...

(well... didn't try the software yet. has anybody?)

* * *

deadalvs

[kraemerJK]

Since I can´t spot somebody from germany speaking up yet, I think I will throw my insights into the mix :

Basically in Germany we have too many architects and not enough jobs. It is the same here with payments for freshly graduated people ranging from 500 to 1000 Euros (before taxes), which is not enough to survive.

By now I am a registered architect and I have my own office. Small, but it is my own. I am certainly not getting rich, but i can comfortably live. In Germany I think the problems that architects are facing are in parts "self-made". In each and every profession there are black sheep. Most professions have agreements that regulate the salaries. We architects do not have that. We have a codex about the fees for the client, but even that gets undermined quite often.

I started my office because I did an apprenticeship as drafter before I started University, because of that I was able to finance my studies by working part-time, (I have to admit that because of that my studies took me a year longer) getting experience on the job. With that experience I was able to build up my own office, working free-lance for architects as well as doing projects for "regular" customers.

Nowadays I get resumes from people that come fresh from university seeking jobs. First off : I would never ever propose wages which would not be considered "making a living". (The black sheep do that though). That the entry level would be paid less than experienced architects is reasonable I think.

BUT : What I simply refuse to understand is that the vast majority of the people applying for jobs have not set one foot into an architects office during their whole university time, sometimes not even for the mandatory office term of (I think) 12 weeks that every student has to do. Which has a devastating effect : I have experienced a lot of people coming from university who suddenly are confronted with a job that is completely different than they thought it to be and then change their minds and do something else. To me that is a giant waste of time, money and life.

And getting back to those 500 Euro full-time Jobs : First of all the people offering jobs like that should be made public. Second : people should say no. What good is a job if it doesn´t pay your rent ? What good is a job that leaves you no choice but to move back to your parents (aged 30+ something) ? And oftentimes the so-called "experience" that you gain by working jobs like these is non-existant. Besides, have you ever tried to pay your landlord with experience ?

I think that to get a job it is okay to get reduced pay for let´s say three month, but then you either have shown your ability to learn or not. And then you should be paid accordingly. And you should NOT accept anything else. Because accepting anything else is what brought us into this mess in the first place. When I started off three years ago I had one rule : Since I did not have any family background that could actually help me out directly i took on every little job that would support me and said no to every job that would not support me, even if there was nothing else I could do at that time. Because one thing I learned early on : The moment you take on the miserably paid job, you won´t find the time to go looking for the real jobs, because you are not only notoriously underpaid but usually you work double the amount of ordinary people.

I know it is very hard to say no when somebody presents you with the opportunity to finally get a foot in the door. Just don´t sell your soul in the process....

[b-kandor]

Leonardo: TKD? tae kwon do?

I do this as well for exercise etc. Just earned my green stripe last week!

[x_site]

London offices currently employ more professionals from other countries than british people.

where i work we have spanish, portuguese, germans, australians, new zelanders, north americans, polish, etc... and we all get along ok.

but we all ear stories about work situation elsewhere...
i hope it does not go bad or i'll change profession

[wagurto]

From where I see, architects face the same problems everywhere. We are a different kind of people, I think. Other professions seems to have some kind of mechanism for protecting their professions. Architects are just worry about competition among ourselft. that's sad.
Some body have any knowledge how is the practice in spain?
thanks you for shareing your experiences.

[Leonardo]

The thing is that architecture is a tool. We need to become developers to support our hobby (architecture) in that way is very profitable

Once I get my Arch. lisence, I 'll go for my G.C. (General Contractor) too..... From them I'll be making the big bucks


leo