Please post here anything else (not relating to Maxwell technical matters)
User avatar
By Hervé
#184002
oups forgot a last Question... are the "to be born" already on earth ?
User avatar
By Thomas An.
#184044
aitraaz wrote:...Proposition: the proposed function [n-1,n,n+1] as a model for the creation of 'conscience' is erratic because it confuses representation with truth and thus invokes the absolute (transcendental).
"Confuses" ?

You are using the word "transcendental" a lot.
What definition do you attach to it ? (non-empirical derivations (as in products of a hunch)? ... the Kent thingy ? ... what )
argument 1: a linear system is proposed for a function of creation. Such a proposition is erratic as it invokes the absolute (negative inifinity to zero (man) to positive infinity) and thus makes transcendental claims to truth.
The presentation of such model (earlier in the thread) was in the form of a plausible scenario (a proposition). No claims were made of it being "believed" as truth. A researcer should not operate on the basis of beliefs. Instead operates with formation of hypothesis / models and then works until a fallacy is found (or a physical conflict).
argument 2: the cartesian line is a scientific function which is a *representation of matter* (the physical world) which is solely a means of measurement (xy, xyz) and in itself has no inherent truth value.
Are you inferring that any act of reasoning (or logical cascade) is considered transcendental ... merely because during the brief phase of derivation we operate on an abstraction layer ?

For example the entire principle in mathematics is based on symbolic representation of the physical world. That is, "coding" the physical parameters into scripted symbols. Perform logic operations in symbolic form (abstraction layer). Decript the result and apply accordingly a physical action.
Would you refer to the above abstraction practice as "trenscendental" ? Would you consider abstract algebra also transcendental ? Are Laplace transforms also considered the same ?

Again I am trying to pinpoint your definition of that word.
argument 3: there is no reason whatsoever to pair creation (or time, for that matter) to a system of measurement (the line which has no existence in matter itself). A system of measurement (cartesian space, for example), is merely a representation of matter, and holds no existence in matter itself.
It is a layer of abstraction. Mapping a hypothesis in mathematical form as in "operations research".

I am beginning to suspect that this is more like a semantics issue.
It didn't occure to me that we would be disagreeing on technicalities (or methodology).
The briefly mentioned number series model (...N-1, n , n+1 ...), could also be presented long hand (not in mathematical form. In other words we could discribe it as "a proposed cascade of consciences following a series of ... grand-grand-God, Grand-God, God, Creation1, SubCreation2, subCreation3 ...".

As for the datum. It is really irrelevant. Instead of N-1,N,N+1 we can say (n-1=k) and then the series becomes (...k,k+1,k+2...)

Are you asserting that the mere act of incepting a series N-1, N... is just a hunch because it "assumes" a creator conscience and then proceeds on the assumption ?
Well, yes, that is why it is a theory (a proposed model). It needs to start somewhere. Otherwise it would be considered a solution. Once the model is set then a number of abstractions (or logical transformations) can be applied. Fallacies might arise and then the model is discarded.

Are you merely objecting to the notion of placing N-1 on the same sphere of existance (as opposed to outside) ?
Well, these were the original parameters of the hypothesis. if the original assumption is "the existence of a creator conscience" ... then the expansion becomes that the physical container (universe) of the creation is arguably a subset to that of its origin. In other words (if we brielfy assume a God), then the mere ability of this entity to handle matter and derive a creation implies physical compatibility. In yet other words if he/she/they can "touch" our physical world (much more create it) then there is "interface". An interface implies compatibility. As such there can be strong suspicion that N-1 and N are in the same physical medium (with N residing in a subset of N-1).
User avatar
By Thomas An.
#184060
tom wrote:
Thomas An. wrote:Will these software consciences ever be able to comprehend anything about the true nature of their universe ? Even if they theorise, will they ever be able actually see "us" (the lab technicians). They have no access to camera's, microphones, or anything that would bridge their world with ours. They can most likely understand the nature of themselves, develop sciences that explains their physics (which is in fact our software routinces)... but can they ever comprehend that they are no more than a mere electron flow inside a circuitry ?
I'm afraid, no and this sets me desperate forever. So, I would rather be happier if I was a believer but sadly I can't deceive myself.
Well, that was the main foundation for my responses to your arguments in most the previous discussion ... when mentioning that a dream implies a "generator". In this case the software consciences are no more than mere algorithms. Nonetheless this whole structure is sustained by the circuitry of the lab technician's PC. In this case the CPU and electronics of the supercomputer are the "generator" that enables the subsystem. Of course the lab technician himself could be an algortihm in someone elses PC ... and so on ... which is similar to the number-line theory of (..N-1, N, N+1 ...)

Both of these hypothesis involve the infinity and they do not really solve anything.
User avatar
By Mihai
#184062
Thomas, I think you would find very interesting a book called (I think in english it's "This is the time of the finished world) "Voici le temps du monde fini". I don't know if it's been translated from french yet, but the author is Albert Jacquard, published by Editions du Seuil, 1991.

It's basically a collection of thoughts about scientific development (time, matter, chance, life, "I"...) over time, and how we have come to a point where all this knowledge won't do us any good when we are running out of space on this planet, the problem being that "with the technical and military means of today, humanity continues to think, and so to act, following the reasoning dating to the Middle Ages".

Some chapters relate to this topic where he discusses the notion of time and matter, and the beginning of the universe.


It's strange what ivox mentioned, that a computer powerful enough would only aquire "artificial" conscience. Meaning our conscience is "natural"? What would make it natural, different? We would be made of the same basic building blocks...

By definition the universe means all-encompassing, there cannot be anything outside it, even God, because then the universe would be God, and us. You may think of God living in another "shell" and ourselves in another but both these shells would have to be considered the universe, or you couldn't call it that.

Another thing, do we consider the universe as a closed system? Remember 2nd law of thermodynamics, any closed system eventually turns to mush, yet the universe seems to be going from more entropy to less entropy, it's not devolving, but evolving into more and more complex structures, us being the most complex we know of at this time. How is this possible? Is the universe not a closed system? Or is the "universe" in fact several sub-universes interacting together, some of them decaying while others prosper?
Last edited by Mihai on Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Mihai
#184065
Thomas An. wrote: Both of these hypothesis involve the infinity and they do not really solve anything.
Consider Plancks constant as the smallest "grain" of time. The duration of "action" performed by the smallest amount of energy. The smallest packets of energy, like TCP/IP data packets.

Now, how do you measure what happened right in between these two packets? Does time exist between these two packets? It is not possible to specify the past of an event based on another if the interval between the two is smaller than Plancks constant. Instead of thinking of infinity/eternity as a succession of events, what if....something happened.....that made you become stuck between two of these packets? Wouldn't you feel in enternity then?

(an idea from this book, can't translate the whole chapter :P )
User avatar
By Thomas An.
#184066
Mihai wrote:By definition the universe means all-encompassing, there cannot be anything outside it, even God, because then the universe would be God, and us. You may think of God living in another "shell" and ourselves in another but both these shells would have to be considered the universe, or you couldn't call it that.
Correct. I agree. This has been the point in a large part of the discussion (mostly the debate with Tom's point). No matter how the interpretation is formulated, either single space or a cascade of shells, it is still *one* universe and we are still dealing with the notion of infinity. The cascade thingy is just a spatial maneuver (others are possible too) ... but it is just that "a maneuver" nonetheless that only suffles the variables but doesn't really do any good. Like in a system of simultaneous equations, we can generate a number of equations that "look" different, but when simplified they are infact redundant .
User avatar
By Thomas An.
#184067
Mihai wrote:
Thomas An. wrote: Both of these hypothesis involve the infinity and they do not really solve anything.
Consider Plancks constant as the smallest "grain" of time. The duration of "action" performed by the smallest amount of energy. The smallest packets of energy, like TCP/IP data packets.

Now, how do you measure what happened right in between these two packets? Does time exist between these two packets? It is not possible to specify the past of an event based on another if the interval between the two is smaller than Plancks constant. Instead of thinking of infinity/eternity as a succession of events, what if....something happened.....that made you become stuck between two of these packets? Wouldn't you feel in enternity then?

(an idea from this book, can't translate the whole chapter :P )
Well, this assumes the presence of quanta as the most indivisible/rudimentary particles... which in itself is now under some scrutiny.

Nonetheless, these are interesting concepts indeed. I remember a very old discussion we had about time and motion (can't find that thread) ... where I mentioned about motion being the one thing I really do not understand... and how is it possible for one particle to move from one infinitescimal point in space to the next ...
User avatar
By aitraaz
#184075
Thomas An. wrote:
aitraaz wrote:...Proposition: the proposed function [n-1,n,n+1] as a model for the creation of 'conscience' is erratic because it confuses representation with truth and thus invokes the absolute (transcendental).
"Confuses" ?

You are using the word "transcendental" a lot.
What definition do you attach to it ? (non-empirical derivations (as in products of a hunch)? ... the Kent thingy ? ... what )
Yep, *confuses*, and i think i can locate one of the key points of dispute here. You're half right on the semantics issue, and we don't agree on methodology (as we'll see that we don't (and most likely won't) agree on several underlying concepts) - but semantics can be, more often than not, of vital importance. On to some definitons....

Let's take a look at the *concept* of the transcendental. Let's suppose (for the nature of the argument), that a concept is agrammatical. Let's also assume that any linguistic (semiotic) phrase describing a concept has a more or less 'loose' relationship to a concept, as it is a *representation* of an agrammatical concept. Several definitions of *transcendental*, from its origins (as a concept) to its more modern day elaborated forms:

1) Transcendental - origins - theological. Aristotle -view of God as the prime mover, a non-material self-consciousness that is outside of the world. Christian origins: idea of God as a being outside of the world who created the world out of nothingness (creatio ex nihilo).

2) Transcendental - post Romanic (midpoint from theology to modern science/philosophy) - "In the second meaning, which originated in Medieval philosophy, concepts are transcendental if they are broader than what falls within the Aristotelian categories that were used to organize reality conceptually. Primary examples of the transcendental are the existent (ens) and the characteristics, designated transcendentals, of unity, truth, and goodness."

3) Transcendental - as modern concept (Kant/Hegel) - the "transcendent" is that which transcends our own consciousness - that which is objective rather than only a phenomenon of consciousness.

Summary: for the sake of this argument, I'll propose a 'condensed' proposition as a defintion of transcendental:

the concept that reason (understood as propositional functions or logic) is the a priori privileged way of relating to the world

Keep in mind, this is in *radical* contrast to empiricism, which we can also define:

Empiricism : is a theory of knowledge emphasizing the role of experience. Experience may be understood to include all contents of consciousness or it may be restricted to the data of the senses only.

What I'm calling into question here, is not reason (understood as propositional logical functions), but rather the concept of a priori , which assumes a seperate, abstract plane or datum of 'truth' (or abstract blueprint) in which matter itself can be understood only in relation to.

The argument here (against the conceptual implementation) of an 'a priori' universal as the only means to knowledge is based on the fact that the concept of 'universal' is a *negation* of *difference* verifiable in the physical world (matter). Difference is 'subsumed' under negation, which is erratic. But this is a rather we known critique and perhaps not necessary for our purposes here.
Thomas An. wrote:
aitraaz wrote:
argument 1: a linear system is proposed for a function of creation. Such a proposition is erratic as it invokes the absolute (negative inifinity to zero (man) to positive infinity) and thus makes transcendental claims to truth.
The presentation of such model (earlier in the thread) was in the form of a plausible scenario (a proposition). No claims were made of it being "believed" as truth. A researcer should not operate on the basis of beliefs. Instead operates with formation of hypothesis / models and then works until a fallacy is found (or a physical conflict).
Ok fine, but the critique wasn't that *you believe that the proposed function is true*, but rather *the function contains a transcendental supposition which condemns the function itself (primarily through negation) to make truth claims on its own (independant of your intentions)*.
Thomas An. wrote:
aitraaz wrote:argument 2: the cartesian line is a scientific function which is a *representation of matter* (the physical world) which is solely a means of measurement (xy, xyz) and in itself has no inherent truth value.
Are you inferring that any act of reasoning (or logical cascade) is considered transcendental ... merely because during the brief phase of derivation we operate on an abstraction layer ?

For example the entire principle in mathematics is based on symbolic representation of the physical world. That is, "coding" the physical parameters into scripted symbols. Perform logic operations in symbolic form (abstraction layer). Decript the result and apply accordingly a physical action.
Would you refer to the above abstraction practice as "trenscendental" ? Would you consider abstract algebra also transcendental ? Are Laplace transforms also considered the same ?

Again I am trying to pinpoint your definition of that word.
Here's the key point: abstraction. Definition (for the sake of this argument):

Abstraction definition: the process of reducing the information content of a concept, typically in order to retain only information which is relevant for a particular purpose. Abstraction typically results in complexity reduction leading to a simpler conceptualization of a domain in order to facilitate processing or understanding of many specific scenarios in a generic way.

What I'm arguing is precisely that, what you call the "brief phase of derivation" which 'invents' or 'creates' an abstraction layer is indeed transcendental, as it, by the above definition of abstract itself, must negate difference in matter itself in order to simplify (code) according to a conceptual blueprint,' in order to "retain information which is relevant for a particular purpose."

An abstraction layer is a *simplified* code, which must negate true difference found in matter itself according to its own interests. The act of abstraction itself invokes a transcendental. In short:

"the abstract does not explain, but must itself be explained;" (Deleuze)

Mathematics and science in themselves are not condemned to transcendentalism (because they are purely utilitarian codes), but scientists & mathematicians often base their propositional logic on a conceptual transcendental framework.

The big bang, string theory etc is a primary example of this, underlying all of the 'logical cascades' as you call them, is the transcendental impetus to discover "the theory of everything", "the unified theory", etc. This i would describe as propositional logic condemned to irrelevancy because its guiding impetus comes from a 'will to the absolute,' (ok its not god but its the answer to everything etc).

OTOH, logical propositions based on empiricism alone (dicreet multiplicities and such) proposes a much more 'healthy' (eg. not doomed to negation, tautology etc...) means of measuring matter and 'inventing' useful propositional functions.
Thomas An. wrote:
aitraaz wrote: It is a layer of abstraction. Mapping a hypothesis in mathematical form as in "operations research".

I am beginning to suspect that this is more like a semantics issue.
It didn't occure to me that we would be disagreeing on technicalities (or methodology).
The briefly mentioned number series model (...N-1, n , n+1 ...), could also be presented long hand (not in mathematical form. In other words we could discribe it as "a proposed cascade of consciences following a series of ... grand-grand-God, Grand-God, God, Creation1, SubCreation2, subCreation3 ...".

As for the datum. It is really irrelevant. Instead of N-1,N,N+1 we can say (n-1=k) and then the series becomes (...k,k+1,k+2...)

Are you asserting that the mere act of incepting a series N-1, N... is just a hunch because it "assumes" a creator conscience and then proceeds on the assumption ?
Well, yes, that is why it is a theory (a proposed model). It needs to start somewhere. Otherwise it would be considered a solution. Once the model is set then a number of abstractions (or logical transformations) can be applied. Fallacies might arise and then the model is discarded.

Are you merely objecting to the notion of placing N-1 on the same sphere of existance (as opposed to outside) ?
Well, these were the original parameters of the hypothesis. if the original assumption is "the existence of a creator conscience" ... then the expansion becomes that the physical container (universe) of the creation is arguably a subset to that of its origin. In other words (if we brielfy assume a God), then the mere ability of this entity to handle matter and derive a creation implies physical compatibility. In yet other words if he/she/they can "touch" our physical world (much more create it) then there is "interface". An interface implies compatibility. As such there can be strong suspicion that N-1 and N are in the same physical medium (with N residing in a subset of N-1).
What i'm saying is the 'abstraction layers' themselves are transcendental operations (the resultants from your 'brief phase of derivation'):

abstraction layer for man: variable (in this case n)
abstraction layer for creation: +/- (plus and minus). By what logical operation is creation (matter) abstracted to addition and subtraction? The transcendental here is invoked through an operation in which you propose that creation can be simplified or coded according to a basic mathematical operation of addition and subtraction along a cartesian linear vector (which in itself implies origin (zero), negative and positive infinity). So it is this act of abstraction that needs to be explained, or evaluated. Perhaps the choice of a cartesian vector (recognized as being antique and long since surpassed in the realms of science & mathematics precisely for its transcendental and *arbitrary* axes) is not best suited?!

Counter propositions:

1). Creation is a 'qualitative multiplicity', and therefore not reducable (through abstraction) to a 'Cartesian' codification, such as 'n-1', however, it is consistent (on the same plane) as the n conscience. To assume otherwise negates empiricism and invokes (through an operation of negation) an absolute. A qualitative mutliplicity is defined as a grouping of heteogeneous forces (all made of matter).

2) If an abstraction layer is to be applied for any propositional theory, a means of codification based on multiplicity should be used as an abstraction layer, in order to avoid the transcendant abstraction of the multiple (matter) to the one (representation/codification/result of the abstraction). Gaussian differential equations, Rieman's metric/non metric multiplicities, which "cannot divide without changing in nature each time" are proposed as possibly being adequate systems of codification.

In other words, the proposed function (n-1,n,n+1) is qualitatively different (as an abstracted layer) from creation itself (matter). A new abstract layer based on qualtitative multiplicity is proposed - one free of the dangers of the absolute (post-cartesian calculus, for example, through Gauss succeeded in liberating cartesian calculus of arbitrary xyz axes)...A propositional function structured on immanent organization (closer to matter) than extrinsic ordering (universal/abstraction). :)
User avatar
By tom
#184106
Thomas An. wrote:Both of these hypothesis involve the infinity and they do not really solve anything.
Yes, I was pointing the impossibility of solving.
User avatar
By Thomas An.
#184166
aitraaz wrote:...Summary: for the sake of this argument, I'll propose a 'condensed' proposition as a defintion of transcendental:

the concept that reason (understood as propositional functions or logic) is the a priori privileged way of relating to the world

Keep in mind, this is in *radical* contrast to empiricism, which we can also define:

Empiricism : is a theory of knowledge emphasizing the role of experience. Experience may be understood to include all contents of consciousness or it may be restricted to the data of the senses only.

What I'm calling into question here, is not reason (understood as propositional logical functions), but rather the concept of a priori , which assumes a seperate, abstract plane or datum of 'truth' (or abstract blueprint) in which matter itself can be understood only in relation to.

... ..What I'm arguing is precisely that, what you call the "brief phase of derivation" which 'invents' or 'creates' an abstraction layer is indeed transcendental, as it, by the above definition of abstract itself, must negate difference in matter itself in order to simplify (code) according to a conceptual blueprint,' in order to "retain information which is relevant for a particular purpose."

....Mathematics and science in themselves are not condemned to transcendentalism (because they are purely utilitarian codes), but scientists & mathematicians often base their propositional logic on a conceptual transcendental framework.
You seem to be immersed in a volume of modernistic philosophical lint (an abstraction layer in itself). The interesting thing is that in order to detect, evaluate/process, and point out the transcendental you need to operate within Transendental as well. Also, the thinking process of "hmm, I cannot see a direct empirical/utilitarian context in this particular hypothesis / argument. Therefore it must be transcendental" involves subjectivity; which is erratic.

In regards to the definitions (thank you btw for setting those up), yes there is some disparity as I volunteer to not consciously operate in observance of those as guidelines ... and this becomes a compatibility impediment in discussing the subject matter (since the phisolophical foundation comes now into question).

Incidentally, in the context of "empiricism" there is mention that "Experience may be understood to include all contents of consciousness" ... but transcendental can also be considered a "content of conscience".

The next thing is in the presupposition that transcendental is inherently poor (which can be an arguable point in itself).
In regards to "Transcendental" ... it is still a byproduct of reasoning (but a poor one you would say).
So briefly stepping back and looking at "reason" : In its pure form, it needs environmental consistency; as a prerequisite. A biological unit, immersed in a habitat, uses sensory to collect observational data. Said data are stored and classified depending on stability of the system, consistency, repeatability. For example the same stone always falls downwards if thrown repeatedly. The collective of all sensory data cumulates in a database of "common sense" knowledge. Such knowledge becomes the foundation at which point the mind can perform logical functions depending on frequency of event occurrence from a statistical basis. Said statistical basis forming the foundation of induction. (if heavy object 1 fell downwards in the past, and heavy object 2 fell downwards and heavy object 1000 fell downwards then the future heavy object 1001 will also fall downwards).

You are basically objecting to the process of projection / induction (as it involves what you mention a-priori) and you probably only embrace "deduction" as it is more close to empiricism / collected data (which is understood since many seem unable to fully grasp mathematical induction as a concept).
However, the process of induction manifests itself in very practical matters of daily observation of a biological system. For example, biological unit N (parent human) produces offspring N+1 (child), N+1 is observed to produce offspring N+2 ... by repeatable confirmation units K,L,M (humans, simians, canine, etc)... Z also produce offsprings K+1, L+1, M+1 ... etc therefore unit N must have been itself the offspring of a unit N-1.
At this point the concept of infinity already arises from the observation of the existing system. It is not as much an abstraction as a mere inductive extrapolation from existing data.

Furthermore, based on your interpretation, mathematics and science *do* fall in the realm of transcendental ... but you seem to classify them as "utilitarian exceptions" to avoid the inconvenience of dealing with a possible inconsistency in the definition. However, a model of thought that involves convenient exceptions like this, is arguably a non streamlined one. As such it involves higher entropy (the push for unified theories, such as the string theory and the like, involve the favorable desire of evolving low entropy thought models).
Notice the use of the mathematical notation in the above example. You would argue that it invokes the transcendental, but without specifying what is the boundary of "utilitarian exceptions". The presupposition being that the conscience Aitraaz ... possesses attributes of superiority that enable it to perform decisive evaluative distinctions of this nature.
Also notice, in the above biological series, that the backwards expansion is considered of higher probability than the forward expansion. In other words it is more likely for a unit N to have a great grand father than for it to have a future great grand child.
As such the inductive process (in its applied form) already takes into consideration probability qualifiers. Conversely, the transcendental-detection process you exhibited involves a 0-1 binary state of poor/good as a function of an observer's subjective assessment of what is to be enveloped as utilitarian.

In any case you seem to operate on an incompatible stratum of thought compared to mine. Not necessarily inferior, or superior, less efficient of more efficient. Just incompatible.
It would take a while to establish a common ground interface.
User avatar
By Hervé
#184175
"Heureux les simples d'esprit, le royaume des cieux est à eux"

hehe.... doooohhh :D
User avatar
By aitraaz
#184275
Thomas An. wrote: You seem to be immersed in a volume of modernistic philosophical lint (an abstraction layer in itself). The interesting thing is that in order to detect, evaluate/process, and point out the transcendental you need to operate within Transendental as well. Also, the thinking process of "hmm, I cannot see a direct empirical/utilitarian context in this particular hypothesis / argument. Therefore it must be transcendental" involves subjectivity; which is erratic.
Quite the contrary, as philosophy's medium is the *concept*, which is agrammatical, and qualitatively different from the medium of science, which operates through propositional functions and logic. The concept, being non-representational/agrammatical, thus may or may not invoke transcendentals (and the same case for propositional logic), it depends on a series of complex factors. Thus with philosophy & science we have two quite distinct modes of human production, each succeptable of falling victim to the absolute, each capable of liberating itself from the absolute, and history is full of both such cases, and both often participating in a mobile and dynamic 'assemblage' within the human consciousness itself (again considered as a multiplicity, a grouping of heterogeneous forces in a entity which cannot be reduced to the one).

As concerns the logical construction of your assertion that I am (necessarily?) invoking the transcendental in order to point out your use of the transcendental, it seems a bit cloudy to me - I don't see the logical construction of this argument. I don't need to perform a transcendental operation, just detect it (a code invoking an absolute as its referent (infinity) and condemn it as a logical operation that negates matter itself for its own purposes . From an empirical standpoint i don't verify anything *resembling* infinity, rather i see heterogeneous multiplicities (matter, movement, duration, creation). I'm not invoking an absolute as a means of critique, I'm just saying keep the abstractions as close to matter as possible, and be careful with the concept of truth, as truth is always related to power. (theology, the nation state, etc...)

And I'm not condemning *anything* that is not utilitarian as being transcendental, there are obviously endless human productions non 'utilitarian' (or course we'd have to invoke a definition of utilitarian here) which do not make claims to the absolute. (art, literature...). So your assertions are a bit foggy to me, but I'd immagine we could hold another lengthy discussion defining the human 'subject,' as my guess is that your definition would be primarily Cartesian in nature. We'll hold off on that one...
Thomas An. wrote: However, the process of induction manifests itself in very practical matters of daily observation of a biological system. For example, biological unit N (parent human) produces offspring N+1 (child), N+1 is observed to produce offspring N+2 ... by repeatable confirmation units K,L,M (humans, simians, canine, etc)... Z also produce offsprings K+1, L+1, M+1 ... etc therefore unit N must have been itself the offspring of a unit N-1.
At this point the concept of infinity already arises from the observation of the existing system. It is not as much an abstraction as a mere inductive extrapolation from existing data.
If you're refering to 'inductive logic' (defined as the process of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support the conclusion but do not ensure it, including the formulation of laws based on limited observations of recurring phenomenal patterns), i could only state that while it may have certain uses as a proposition function (probability statistics), as a *conceptual* proposition, its hard to come accross anything more transcendental or opposed to matter itself.

Two (wikipedia) examples concerning inductive logic:

1st example (statistical syllogism) :

A proportion Q of population P has attribute A.
An individual I is a member of P.
therefore
There is a probability which corresponds to Q that I has A.


As an inductive logic (and this is an extremely simple example), no transcendental operation is invoked, the function may be considered empirical (& abstracted).

2nd example (introductory example) :

This ice is cold.
A billiard ball moves when struck with a cue.

...to infer general propositions such as:

All ice is cold.
There is no ice in the Sun.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Anything struck with a cue moves.


Now, this example is paramount, as we see, when inductive logic is applied to *semiotic* system (codes which serve as signs *representing* matter) all sorts of transcendental problems arise, and the absolute is continually evoked.

When used as a function on a semiotic system (meaning /representation), it functions more or less as a "transcendental" machine, creating all kinds of representational and semiotic havoc.

Going back to the original problem, from this vantage point i could say that inductive logic may be very useful when applied to the birth of species for example, as this can be empirically observed and verified over time, but when employed in an economy of the creation of a conscience (not empirically observable in matter (i doubt you or anyone else for that matter has witnessed or measured such a thing)), we run into all kinds or problems, not the least of which you're proposing an inductive method founded on observation which is set to task on something unobservable, semiotic in nature, and grounded on a Cartesian concept (itself transcendental).

Thomas An. wrote:

Furthermore, based on your interpretation, mathematics and science *do* fall in the realm of transcendental ... but you seem to classify them as "utilitarian exceptions" to avoid the inconvenience of dealing with a possible inconsistency in the definition. However, a model of thought that involves convenient exceptions like this, is arguably a non streamlined one. As such it involves higher entropy (the push for unified theories, such as the string theory and the like, involve the favorable desire of evolving low entropy thought models).
Notice the use of the mathematical notation in the above example. You would argue that it invokes the transcendental, but without specifying what is the boundary of "utilitarian exceptions". The presupposition being that the conscience Aitraaz ... possesses attributes of superiority that enable it to perform decisive evaluative distinctions of this nature.
Also notice, in the above biological series, that the backwards expansion is considered of higher probability than the forward expansion. In other words it is more likely for a unit N to have a great grand father than for it to have a future great grand child.
As such the inductive process (in its applied form) already takes into consideration probability qualifiers. Conversely, the transcendental-detection process you exhibited involves a 0-1 binary state of poor/good as a function of an observer's subjective assessment of what is to be enveloped as utilitarian.


I'm not avoiding any inconveniences, I'm arguing in favor of shifting mathematics and science closer to matter, and further from the absolute, closer to the functions themselves.

Consider the development of science through the ages - in a sense, it can be seen as a movement away from its theological origins (moral thought) towards a greater force of the propositional functions themselves. Galileo to Descartes to Leibniz to Spinoza to Plank...from moral theological (transcendental thought) to propositonal logic.

And once again, there's no binary process involved in 'detecting' a transcendental, quite the contrary, as abstraction
by definition is binary, as it must negate *difference* in matter according to its own utilitarian needs.

matter = pure difference (empirically observable in matter)
abstracted code = pure repetition (any code in its essence relies on repetition in order for it to exist, or be repeated or transmitted).

The absraction layer is thus obtained through an act of
negation (negation of difference), a simple binary operation. And this negation comes about through a will (to utility), which incidentally is precisely the definition of abstraction. Matter does not negate - man does, for purely utilitarian reasons.

Anyways, as you point out, we're running on different stratums, so cheers & thanks for the learning & dialectics :)
User avatar
By Thomas An.
#184280
aitraaz wrote:...Quite the contrary, as philosophy's medium is the *concept*, which is agrammatical, and qualitatively different from the medium of science, which operates through propositional functions and logic. The concept, being non-representational/agrammatical, thus may or may not invoke transcendentals (and the same case for propositional logic), it depends on a series of complex factors. Thus with philosophy & science we have two quite distinct modes of human production, each succeptable of falling victim to the absolute, each capable of liberating itself from the absolute, and history is full of both such cases, and both often participating in a mobile and dynamic 'assemblage' within the human consciousness itself (again considered as a multiplicity, a grouping of heterogeneous forces in a entity which cannot be reduced to the one).
Well, the line of distinction between science and philosophy is not always a clear one. Science does need to delve into the realm of abstraction and the conceptual (negation of difference as you mention ... and especially mathematical abstraction) in both ends of the scale (micro or macro) in order to formulate models. These abstractions by nature are unpalatable to a human conscience and require some form of decoding (semiotic representation as you mention). In the begining of such formation the construct may have little or no empirical antecedent. These models are then put to a reality test over the course of time. For example, the string theory may currently be considered transendental (by your model of thought), due to its lack (as of yet) of empirical antecedent. But what happens when experimentation begins to support the hypothesis... does it get reclassifyied from transendental to non transendental ?

Yet another fundamental (possibly insurmountable) difference between our vantage points; is that I would not recognize such distinction between modes of thought (science and philosophy) but rather prefer a utilitarian, simplificational, and *unified* model. An empirically based model, where the mind is seen as a tool for survival and its faculties been evolved for that very purpose ... where data act as "fuel" and where neural circuitry provide functions of deduction and induction (extrapolation). Said functions forming the fundamental particles of consciense, that when glued together give the appearance of higher and more abstract behaviors. All for the simple purpose of performing survival decisions (and collecting success-rates or feedback via the emotion subsystem). Where any layers of abstraction are infact temporary periods of inductive reasoning cascades (that depending on their calculation depth might appear purely theoretical at first glasnce, but are pursued merely for their practical implications.
...I'm just saying keep the abstractions as close to matter as possible, ...
Yes, this is easy to translate between our models of thought. You are basically saying to keep the "probability qualifiers" of the induction sequences (mentioned earlier) as high as possible; which is quite simple and self evident.
.........
Going back to the original problem, from this vantage point i could say that inductive logic may be very useful when applied to the birth of species for example, as this can be empirically observed and verified over time, but when employed in an economy of the creation of a conscience (not empirically observable in matter


... but the birth of a (human) species is also non empirically observable (witnessed or measured) and as a matter of fact the induction process also invokes infinity (the chicken and egg concept propagating backwards and disappearing in the mist of time). Yet you mention that this part of induction is ok in contrast to that applied to creation of a conscience etc ...

I don't need to perform a transcendental operation, just detect it (a code invoking an absolute as its referent (infinity) and condemn it as a logical operation that negates matter itself for its own purposes . From an empirical standpoint i don't verify anything *resembling* infinity, rather i see heterogeneous multiplicities (matter, movement, duration, creation).


The previous point (on birth of species) is where some of my skepticism arose in your mention about mere "detection" of transcendental. As the detection "process" might be transcendental in itself. In this case you are refering to matter, movement, duration, creation as heterogeneous multiplicities ... how did this conclusion arise ? ... are they presuppositions ? what if they are trully not heterogeneous; once the fabric of space is fully analysed and verifyied ? Human sensory observation has been found to present only a limited range of reality (for example the eye can only detect a short range of the EM spectrum ... but there is more to the spectrum than what meets the eye... )

.......I'm not avoiding any inconveniences, I'm arguing in favor of shifting mathematics and science closer to matter, and further from the absolute, closer to the functions themselves....


Well, it seems I was on the right track when pin pointing the gist of this discussion (in relation to inductive reasoning and outcome propability). It is actually a simple matter, but I am not sure it warranted such a long detour though.

More precicely you seem to be refering to the concept of cantilever thought sequences (and their inherent cumulative error potential).
As an example think of reality as a tall wall (say the facade of a skyscraper) in the midst of a dense fog. There is a number of wood beams (cummulated experiences) and there is a construction worker (a conscience). The worker fastens a beam against the wall so as to project outwards (formation of an abstract thought). At the end of the first beam fastens a second beam end-to-end... then a third, a fourth, and so on. In this cantilever construct, only the first beam is precise (the end fastened to the wall / reality). Each of the other beams is slightly off and the last beam is off by as much as the sum of all prior errors. The precision of the last / furthest beam is a function to the skill of the worker (the entropy level of the conscience). In sunmary, the accuracy of any abstract argument deminises with length (number of abstraction layers/steps used) and the rate of this attenuation depends on the "quality/clarity" of the conscience that generates the argument.

You have been trying to say/advise basically to keep the arguments/theories to as few cantilever steps as possible so as to minimize the potential for errors.

I do not have a problem with this self evident proposition, the main reason I questioned portions of your thinking/objection is in how did you determin the attenuation reach of a conscience, before establishing how far (or whether) they should build their cantilevers .... Such determination would entail a non empirically vwerifiable presuposition and as such can be considered transcendental in itself (this was the gist in the openning paragraph of the previous post, where you mentioned about not following the connection).

Anyways, as you point out, we're running on different stratums, so cheers & thanks for the learning & dialectics

Likewise, I am appreciative of the opportunity for this discussion. Dispite disagreement (or even because of them) such civil exchanges remain quite enjoyable !
  • 1
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 10
render engines and Maxwell

"prompt, edit, prompt" How will an AI r[…]