[Nova66]

I accidentally passed an MXI file through a text editor and found an interesting little header that starts off by saying that "You shouldn't be reading this". One of the first statements in that header is that "the universe is deterministic".

I guess in some sense I agree with this statement but it's interesting to me to consider the roll that Chaos theory has in determining the macroscopic evolution of a system and its exquisite sensitivity to initial conditions. If we agree that Quantum Mechanics is stochastic then this implies that the initial conditions are unpredictable, but once set in place those initial conditions provide the seed for the deterministic evolution of macroscopic systems. That's assuming that the equations describing the evolution of the system are non-linear.

The second statements is that "Quantum theories are incomplete". If this means that we could have a version of Quantum Mechanics that is not stochastic, then does this imply that the Universe is deterministic all the way down


I'm curious to hear what people think.
Andrew.

[adman]

"but once set in place those initial conditions provide the seed for the deterministic evolution of macroscopic systems." This is a massive assumption, please explain.
Also, " If this means that we could have a version of Quantum Mechanics that is not stochastic, then does this imply that the Universe is deterministic all the way down(?)". Quantum Mechanics is a theory, so of course it could have any number of variations, but please explain the rationale for a completely non-stochastic version.
You shouldn't be reading this.

[Nova66]

but once set in place those initial conditions provide the seed for the deterministic evolution of macroscopic systems.

This is a massive assumption, please explain.

I guess it is a big assumption but I think of quantum fluctuations (you know, the quantum foam where at Planck scales virtual particles come in and out of existence) as being inherently random and in no way determined by the laws of cause and effect. As they come and go out of existence it is these random quantum fluctuations that form the seeds for future cascades of deterministic cause and effect events.

It's like the boundary of the Mandelbrot set. You could zoom in 10^100 times, look at a particular co-ordinate and find that there is chaos surrounding it with some points being inside and others being outside the set. It is this exquisite sensitivity to initial conditions that leads to the chaotic nature of the boundary but never the less, if you do settle on ONE particular co-ordinate you can find out deterministically if that point belongs inside the set or not. Look at another point very near to the first and you are back at square one, not being able to predict the ultimate fate of that nearby point without doing the deterministic calculations from scratch.

So to make the analogy, quantum foam might be equivalent to the sea of points surrounding a small chaotic region of the Mandelbrot set. And deterministic evolution of real world systems might be analogous to the way a point is determined to be either inside or outside the Mandelbrot set, both are exceptionally sensitive to their respective initial conditions.

If this means that we could have a version of Quantum Mechanics that is not stochastic, then does this imply that the Universe is deterministic all the way down(?)

Quantum Mechanics is a theory, so of course it could have any number of variations, but please explain the rationale for a completely non-stochastic version.

I don't have much of a rational for a non-stochastic version of Quantum Mechanics. I was merely responding to the comments that the Maxwell developers casually put into the MXI file header. They stated that the universe was deterministic and that Quantum Theories are incomplete. The only simplistic way that I can rationalise that is to imagine that Quantum Mechanics was in some way not stochastic which takes out the random aspect of it and put us solely in the domain of determinism. I was just brainstorming so to speak


Andrew.

[eric nixon]

No such thing as quantum bollox, Its just a dead-end theory. Time to move on. Light is not a wave, they are vibrating particles with their own magnetic fields, (the field can pass through both slits, but the particle only passes through one).. Thank me later.

And btw. satellites dont use quantum bollox to maintain orbits, thats another myth.

And.. while we're at it, redshift theory is wrong (the actual inventor said that before he died) which means the visible universe is a LOT closer than we thought... what else,... the earth is not the centre of the universe,... microwave background radiation doesn't exist, magnetic fields dont have 'lines' (common misconception) and the galaxy maintains a constant magnetic field. And obviously black holes are nonsense and so is the big bang. Ciao