All posts related to V2
By JDHill
#346274
It might be somewhat clearer if you refer to it as Single-Sided SSS, rather than 'thin' SSS. It works very differently, because it exists to prevent the need for a very specific thing: modeling every thin object as having a minute, yet real, thickness. That is, it is not intended at all to be used as a general-purpose material; it is expressly designed for the single purpose of reducing your effort on the modeling side (esp. in allowing you to use 3rd-party geometry -- tree leaves and such -- the makeup of which you do not control).

In other words, it is your way of telling the engine: "please ignore the fact that this piece of geometry is not modeled correctly; just pretend that it is something other than what it is, and render that instead." That's why applying it to something like the Simball really makes no sense -- you want that nice geometry rendered as it was modeled, not as some crappy single-plane leaf you downloaded from a website.

I do get your point about somehow making that clearer in the UI, but speaking concretely, how do you really do that? I think that these are just the kinds of problems that you run into once you introduce an incorrect mode into the system in the name of user-convenience. That being the case, I'm not sure how you do it any better; at least the manual is very clear about what that switch does, and why it exists.
By brodie_geers
#346277
Rust, you don't talk enough. Any hints on material setup?

JD. Single-sided SSS is a lot of typy typy. NL introduced the term thinSSS but I understand what you mean - I suppose it's technically misleading. I can appreciate that it's a 'cheat' of sorts but Maxwell is full of cheats (displacement, bump, anisotropy, etc. - they're all methods of faking geometry that isn't modeled). I think what makes this different is that it doesn't seem act how one would expect. When I use a displacement map, it's easy to know what I'll get before I hit render. With thi...er...SSSSS (S^5?) there seem to be some pretty clear rules as dictated by the manual, but they don't really seem to work, at least not in a very intuitive way.

How does it get better? My impression is that the controls are clear enough it's just that they don't seem to work (there, I've said it). At the very least they seem to influence, and be influenced by to many other factors. 1/2 life's UI idea make make things even more clear.

I'm open to being proven wrong but I'm no slouch when it comes to material creation and as I've said, I've spent days working on trying to grasp S^5 since it was introduce and still can't seem to get very predictable results from it.

-Brodie
User avatar
By Half Life
#346282
You know me JD -- if there's one area of Maxwell I think has room for vast improvement it's the material system :wink:

The things it does do, it does very well -- but thinSSS (or SSSSS) has the UI writing checks Maxwell can't cash in terms of intuitive use of the material system... and realistic results.

If there was a way to add thinSSS to a BSDF the same way you add a coating to a BSDF then I think it would be completely obvious to expect things to work in a unique way.

I understand where you are coming from with the geometry angle (and I agree completely that in a perfect world everything would be modeled properly) but with all the limitations of the current 3D technology (in popular use) things like thinSSS are useful... assuming the user can set up the material to utilize thinSSS successfully (and realistically which is my gripe with it).

My other issue with thinSSS (or any single-poly materialization) is we would need both sides of the leaf to be mapped(with different settings for each side) to get any kind of truly realistic effects. 8)

here's my outline for how I think it should be handled:

1) thickness should be a double-sided displacement map... creating real volume for SSS voxel style 8) Perhaps a displacement map for each side of the polygon might do it...

2) there should be separate maps and settings for each side for things like reflectance, asymmetry and roughness.

In my mind that is the most realistic way to achive the desired results.

Now I'm not even sure technology exists to create a double-sided(self-sealing) displacement... and I am also equally sure that the resulting renders would take forever.

However from material design and usability standpoint that is the most efficient and intuitive approach. :lol:

That said, I have ideas on how to make Maxwell materials system better and more powerful for just about every aspect -- and I'm sure most of it would be incredibly hard to impliment :D

Best,
Jason.
By brodie_geers
#346283
I think the 2 sided material idea is interesting but I would tend to disagree that it should be a default for thinSSS (or monoplaner multiscatterer?). It would be a nice option to have but it sounds like a lot of work that wouldn't always be necessary. I'd probably tweak that idea and pull out 2 sides materials as a totally separate component not related to thinSSS (or 2D surface 3D scatter). I've barely touched the surface with Vray but this seems to be how it handles it according to this tutorial ( http://www.peterguthrie.net/blog/2009/1 ... al-leaves/ ).

-Brodie
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By Mihai
#346306
We could design a very simple UI for each of the diffuse/transmittance/scattering components IF these wouldn't have to interact with each other to maintain realistic shading.

It might help if you think that these three light interactions always have to be in balance, they are not separate. It's not really a matter of thinSSS or SSS, even though they work very differently internally the concepts are the same.

Diffuse: Rough, smooth, dull, shiny. Easy.

Transmittance: Light that doesn't get reflected at the surface from the diffuse component, passes through the object and gets attenuated by the attenuation parameter, but also gets color and value (attenuation) from the transmittance color. A bit more difficult to understand but still pretty clear.

Scattering: Now there's a third interaction which is light that gets scattered inside the object, apart from light that is simply transmitted through the object without scattering. This scattered light may also take on a different color than the main Transmittance color you set. This happens in real life, for example in milk.

Each of these "parts" have one unit of light to work with and it has to be distributed based on your parameters for each of the parts - light reflected back from the surface, light transmitted, volumetric scattering of the transmitted light. Or in the case of thinSSS a faster, simpler non volumetric scattering model.

So with this in mind, going through your answers:

(I used the drapery material scene, I don't have the one you used, but tried the same material parameters. Also I don't say there aren't possible problems with thinSSS but the settings you used in your material would make it very difficult to check)

1. Why does lightening the Scattering color darken the material color?

Look at your asymmetry setting. It's set to a high negative value meaning almost all scattered light will be scattered in the opposite direction of the incoming light, so the "front" of the material in this case will have very little light reflected back towards you. If the sphere the cloth sits would be an emitter, you would instead see much brighter scattering (backlighting).

By brightening the scattering color you're also specifying more scattering, not just a color, so most of the light received by this material will be scattered, away from you, very little will be reflected back from the surface.

2. Why isn't this material white?

Again it's about the negative asymmetry setting, and the lighting/camera angle in this scene. You are specifying a material which sends most of the light through the back. Set asymmetry to 0 or even positive and it will be white. Such a high asymmetry setting may not be realistic and we have to do some testing probably.

But your current reflectance and transmittance values being so high, it's difficult to guess what happens when Maxwell tries to maintain the balance. You specify almost all light should be reflected from the surface, but also almost all light should be transmitted....

3. Why does Roughness have such a dramatic affect on how translucent the material is?
Because the light that gets diffusely reflected from the surface hides more and more the transparency/translucency.

This effect in your case is also more powerful because of the very low ND of 1.1 > ND really only matters when the roughness is low, as roughness increases the influence of the ND parameter decreases. An accurate ND can't be computed for rough surfaces. So when you increase roughness the refl0 color matters more and more, even with Force Fresnel on.

So in your case, with an ND of 1.1 and low roughness in the beginning, almost no light is reflected from the surface, instead it gets transmitted/scattered. The attenuation distance of 1mm is low, and also the asymmetry is negative so the light gets attenuated very quickly and also the light scatters away from the camera - a darker material.

4. Why does changing the Attenuation from 1mm to 1m have so little affect on translucency? Note: values under 1mm did make the object gradually more opaque as one would expect.

Asymmetry setting again. Even though you've specified now that the light should not be attenuated so quickly, most of it is scattered away from you.

5. What's the proper Nd for a leaf? Nd has a large impact on translucency but I'm not sure what an appropriate value is.

I don't know, but I'd keep it around 1.5, 1.4.

6. Why does Ref0 make such a large difference on translucency?

As mentioned above with roughness vs ND, since in that particular screenshot you have roughness set to 50, ND will not matter so much now and instead the amount of light reflected from the surface is determined more by the refl 0 color. The fact that light is diffusely scattered on the surface also hides the transparency/translucency of the material. The same thing would happen with a glass material.

To summarize - you've used the worse possible material settings for discovering how thinSSS works :mrgreen:

A much better approach is to start as if you where creating a transparent material, no scattering. Set an appropriate ND, appropriate Transmittance (probably higher than 1mm even for a leaf) and use a transmittance texture if you want, but don't make the transmittance almost pure white. If you want a rougher surface you can also use this texture for the reflectance colors, but again don't just set them to white.

Then turn on scattering, it could be the same color as the transmittance for more consistent results and set a realistic thickness.
The asymmetry parameter is important and you can check its influence with the leaf preview scene to see how much backlighting you get by setting the asymmetry to a negative value.

The problem here might be that it looks ok now backlit, but when front lit, the surface is not solid looking enough. You can "cheat" here and create another layer with no transparency and apply your texture to the reflectance colors. Then play with the layer weight.


I type too much too......
By brodie_geers
#346309
Mihai, thanks for the detailed explanation. That's quite a balancing act there. I'll be studying that for awhile.

A more common problem I see than a frontlit leaf looking to transparent is that it looks too dark. This is very noticeable in the sample material thinSSS_treeLeaf provided with 2.x. Is there some physical explanation of this?

It's really difficult to feel like I'm getting a grasp on any aspect of this when each setting seems to influence several others and several others seem to influence each setting. Every setting from Ref0 to Roughness to the more obvious ones seem to affect transparency, for example. And transparency, conversely seems to affect all of those settings.

-Brodie
By numerobis
#346311
Thanks for sharing your material, Bubbaloo!
...but shouldn't the thickness map be inverted? :? :?:

and thanks for the explanation Mihai... i think i have to read it again... :lol:
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