[w i l l]

Could someone give me some advice on copyright. If I model and render a product from a sketch/drawing produced by the client do they own the copyright on the final renders and progress work? Is there any legality that allows me to show this work in my portfolio?

They have stated that I'm not allowed to show any renders or progress work relating to the design/product... ever. Basically it has been done in spite because they thought my eventual £5/hour rate was too high (joke).

[JorisMX]

The rights you own to pictures depend on alot.

First of all the question is, did you produce lets say 85% of the image?
Next thing is, what are you selling to who. There are often no rights to Packaging Images for example.

Most importantly it depends on what you agree on in the working contract.

For example, lets say you produce a series of 5 images that are roughly drafted by the client, you have alot of freedom to make the pictures happen and are the "photographer" on this job.

Either you

1 sell including rights to the pictures
meaning: you include a fee with your usual per hour costs and then nce you are done the picture is theirs.
This also means the client can sell the rights tothe picture to somebody else to use it for something different. Think photo stock images.

2 give them the rights for free
meaning: stupid to do, I would only recommend this is you REALLY need the job and want to charm the client. Also you can find yourself doing this if the creative value (i.e. box of shampoo on a white bg) is rather low and you don't see this image being used for anything else.

3 make a deal for area, media and time.
meaning: Write into your contract that the client accepts the fact that he/she will have the rights to use your image for what, how long and where. For example, you can print ads in magazines published only in France from march 2009 till march 2010 with a number of so and so copies.
This way you will earn some more money if people decide they want to reuse your image after the period you agreed on is over.

4 give them a pricelist
meaning: this is nailing it down. I dont think is is a good way to treat clients, but sometimes it works...
You specify exactly what is allowed and what not and you include your pricelist like:
"X year per country per number of copies per medium it will be printed/projected on"

No matter what you do, in your working agreement there should be atleast one line in there dealing with the rights of the images that are produced for the job.
Even if you "give" them all the rights, you should state this to avoid high tempered discussions lateron.

I would go for #3 or #1 if you get a little price bump and dont care too much about the images in this job.

hope this helps

[w i l l]

Thanks for that. Well there was no contract. It's a small job... client emailed me saying that they have a design for a bag that they'd like to be modelled and visualised. I emailed them various proofs to which they agreed and then the final render.

I asked a while ago if I could show the render (as it's my best product render). They agreed, but then decided that I wasn't allowed until they registered the product, then agreed that I could show the render in 3 months when registerd. Now due to the situation they're stating that I can't show the product ever (plus another render of a product) and all proofs.

[dd_]

£5 an hour are you MAD
i would keep asking them and also state that you would even add their details along side the images used by yourself. if they still say no i would tweak the design so its yours and not theirs re-brand it and use as you will.

[w i l l]

Yeah well the rate eventually ended up near that! Hence why I didn't want to render any more infinite 'proofs' and required more money.

I'm not going to ask as they're doing it in spite. I'd just like to know the legal situation. It's no big deal if I can't show the images... I'd just like to know if the demands are legally right.

Isn't tweaking the design a bit dodgy? How much do you tweak? Could I just change the shape of the buckle?! There's a lot of grey area in this.

[seco7]

With no written contract in place it is difficult to say one way or another. I would assume it comes down to context. In my experience, they would not want you too because:

1. If they failed getting the design registered because it was too similar to existing designs than by displaying your renderings you could open them up to risk.

2. They don't understand what your intent is. If you explain that you would like to display them in a limited format in a professional community they may see it differently.

3. They believe it just isn't worth the risk to allow you to show renderings. 99% of the product renderings we do have a "do not display, ever" clause. This isn't because we are untrustworthy, but because you never know who is going to see them and copy the designs. Most companies atleast want to get a running start on production before they are knocked off.

Along #3, we actually had a company approach us with the promise of design work until after a couple weeks of beating around the bush they came out and offered to buy (read as copy) the designs we did for one of their competitors. Obviously we didn't sell and we will never do work with them but if we didn't display the images with our name and information the competitor would not have known who did the designs and how to contact us.

Just a thought from experience. Yours may be completely different.

[dd_]

everything has been done before in some shape or form so chances are there are similar designs to the one you have done for them anyway. there are only so many ways to invent the wheel. so when i say tweak i mean just tweak the design so it doesnt look like theirs (totally). grab some refs of some similar and mix the two. this way you have some nice renders your proud off (which you obviously are) to show. ive done some work that i myself think is some of my best work that i am never aloud to show and it grinds me. infact one won a gold award for the tv shot we did, where 99% of the modeling, texturing, etc was mine and i can never show it nor add the fact it won on any of my sites. so i feel your pain mate.

[yolk]

a verbal agreement is as binding as a signed contract.

now if they first said you could show the renderings 3 months after they registered it and now revert to: no you cannot show these ever, as they were not able to register them, i in your situation would tell them to go fuck themselves and show your images 3 1/2 months after you finished the job.

what the hell do they think - amateurs!

next time don't work without a 23page contract - even for a small job.

[glebe digital]

In the UK, if you can prove authorship of a work, then it's yours........unless you signed away the rights via a legally witnessed document or have entered a non-disclosure agreement.

They are authors of the design..........did they give you any 3d data? If not, and you personally built it 100% with your own mouse, then the actual image you created is yours.

Most NDA's I've signed have a defined period when they remain active, a shelf-life if you like..........however there are exceptions, I currently have one that prohibits even my wife EVER seeing the images.........and this is perfectly fine because if it was MY sensitive commercial project, I would not want it disseminated in any way either.

Most times though it's just a matter of building relationships through trust........I do a fair amount of sensitive stuff without NDA, most never sees the light of day but if it does, it's always after the project has entered the public domain.

In a hypothetical situation like this -where one is 'taking it up the back passage'- then it's hard to see why you should lie back and take it like a man.

[glebe digital]

a verbal agreement is as binding as a signed contract.

Not in the EU it isn't.
Personally I always honour verbal agreements, but then I'm a nice guy..........as long as I get paid on time!..........however it doesn't sounds like this was any sort of 'agreement', more like a unilateral demand.........and without paperwork, it ain't worth a monkey's toss.

All of the below is from the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988:

Who owns a piece of work

Normally the individual or collective who authored the work will exclusively own the work. However, if a work is produced as part of employment [ie:as a PAYE employee] then it will normally belong to the person/company who hired the individual.

Freelance or commissioned work will usually belong to the author of the work, unless there is an agreement to the contrary, (i.e. in a contract for service).

[w i l l]

There is an NDA..... it states that all IP rights, design rights, copyright, trade marks, patents, etc remains with the client. The client also owns any documents or designs supplied by the client (not supplied by me..... as far as I can see).

He supplied a 2D Autocad drawing. I built the model and even suggested design changes/improvements which he went with.

So I think what I'm trying to find out is.... although the original design and concept is his (as an Autocad sketch) does that mean he then owns the 3D model and render images? I mean 99% of the work was mine. This is what I don't really understand... can a client give a verbal demand to not show an image (even if it's their confidential design that they dont want to enter the public domain) when I created 99% of it and could class it as my own artwork. It's their concept, but it's still my 3D model and render images. And in fairness that is the product!

[w i l l]

'Normally the individual or collective who authored the work will exclusively own the work. However, if a work is produced as part of employment [ie:as a PAYE employee] then it will normally belong to the person/company who hired the individual.'

Yeah but it's his concept. So what does that mean? Does that mean that he owns the concept.... i.e. I can't manufacture the bag for profit? And I own the 3D model, renders and proofs?

[w i l l]

'If not, and you personally built it 100% with your own mouse, then the actual image you created is yours.'

And if I built it and it's mine does that mean that I can show it..... anywhere?

[w i l l]

I know why..... it's 3. But I'm not too worried about why they don't want me to show it (although I would be with any other client), I'm more concered about whether I'm legally allowed to show it.

With no written contract in place it is difficult to say one way or another. I would assume it comes down to context. In my experience, they would not want you too because:

1. If they failed getting the design registered because it was too similar to existing designs than by displaying your renderings you could open them up to risk.

2. They don't understand what your intent is. If you explain that you would like to display them in a limited format in a professional community they may see it differently.

3. They believe it just isn't worth the risk to allow you to show renderings. 99% of the product renderings we do have a "do not display, ever" clause. This isn't because we are untrustworthy, but because you never know who is going to see them and copy the designs. Most companies atleast want to get a running start on production before they are knocked off.

Along #3, we actually had a company approach us with the promise of design work until after a couple weeks of beating around the bush they came out and offered to buy (read as copy) the designs we did for one of their competitors. Obviously we didn't sell and we will never do work with them but if we didn't display the images with our name and information the competitor would not have known who did the designs and how to contact us.

Just a thought from experience. Yours may be completely different.

[w i l l]

I produced all of the image. I modelled it, textured it, rendered it, Photoshop'd it, Illustrator'd it. Even suggested and made design changes.

The rights you own to pictures depend on alot.

First of all the question is, did you produce lets say 85% of the image?
Next thing is, what are you selling to who. There are often no rights to Packaging