[deflix]

If you're rendering still images (for mattes), then maxwell would be great (esepcially if you used multilight somehow). Although texture baking would have no bearing whatsoever on this pipeline. A matte is very different to a live environment in cg.

I think there's a bit of general mis-understanding about texture baking, so I'll attempt to clarify: Lightscape was a rendering engine that opened the door to texture-baking back in the early 90's. This was because Lightscape was a radiosity renderer that rendered the model as a whole, and was not view-dependent. in other words every surface in the model received and reflected light using a simple 'adaptive' type algorithm that kept running until all the original light energy was used up. Once complete you could navigate around the model (in OpenGL) and create images from any number of viewpoints with a raytraced pass.

Using Lightscape it was possible to output the model with the lighting 'baked' on into 3dsmax. In its raw form texture baking is relativley crude as it does not include reflections, refractions, caustics and other anomolies which are view-dependent. These would be added in a second pass.

Now unless i'm wrong (stand to be corrected here) Maxwell is an unbiased rendering system which means it is 'strictly' view dependent. Natural phenoema are NOT controllable and simply get calculated regardless (including caustics despite the option to turn it off - doesnt work), so there is no logical way texture baking would work.

Texture baking is used primarily for real-time 3d (games, interactive models etc...) or for improving efficiency in animation pipelines.

A far more sensible option for anyone looking for the level of control required for something like texture baking should look at a biased solution like vray whose IRMap is a perfect example of how texture baking would work.

check it out.....

[Frances]

A far more sensible option for anyone looking for the level of control required for something like texture baking should look at a biased solution like vray whose IRMap is a perfect example of how texture baking would work.

check it out.....

I believe it is the photon mapping in vray that is view independent. And to some extent Lightcache.

I miss Lightscape.

[deflix]

and i miss you! - didnt realise you were a maxwell user too!
What i meant with vray was the irmap and using the irmap viewer to look at it, merge them together and understand in more detail radiosity and how it works in relation to baking. when you view an irmap in the viewer you are effectively viewing a 'baked' radiosity solution.

All modern renderers are view-dependent really.

Lightscape was leagues ahead of its time and deliberately destroyed by Autodesk in the interests of truncating 3d evolution and increasing profit thereof.

ps - i still have a copy if you want to play.....

[Frances]

...
ps - i still have a copy if you want to play.....

I still have my copy. Somewhere. With the service patch backed up in 8 different places.

[def4d]

I often heard about Lightscape, but being pretty young in CG world, it's an old thing for me, and the few renders i could see, didn't deserve that great render.
Would you have high quality examples?

[deflix]

I often heard about Lightscape, but being pretty young in CG world, it's an old thing for me, and the few renders i could see, didn't deserve that great render.
Would you have high quality examples?

A few lightscape images - (bear in mind that once 'rendered' the whole model is available as a real-time interactive entity) One of the biggest problems with our histroy has been the deliberate censoring and blurring of history and progress by unscrupulous companies in the interest of control and profit - namely Autodesk. This included a very rigorous sanitisation of the facts behind what we do and a side-step from heartfelt research to a money-making model. Autodesk have been singlehandedly limiting progress in the CG world since their inception.

One of the beautiful things with Lightscape was its efficiency - utilizing a 'progressive-refinement radiosity algorithm' that would be capable of rendering on 100mhz machines at the time. Not to discredit modern developers like NL but there has been an abandonment of efficiency in this way, with renderers like Maxwell being hundreds of times slower to render. The most frustrating thing is how Lightscape was bought by ADesk and just locked in the backroom for ever. Who knows where it would be now if this hadnt happened. We need a new version of this software......NL??

One interesting fact behing CG is that Greenbergs original interest was based on modeling and rendering as a design tool - not a way of making images for a designer, and how much this tool would empower an architect. This is still not in place but is slowly happening now with software like sketchup being used more by architects. Incredibly far-sighted this man was.

Information on CG history is scarce and broken and even Wiki is not well covered on the subject (probably for the reasons stated above). Start with this page for a fairly good overview:

http://design.osu.edu/carlson/history/h ... l-awb.html





and for those of you who dont know you should this is the man responsible for Lightscape and for our industry - show your respect!:

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/people/director.html

This is one of the worlds first animations created there

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/online/cip/

and these pages give some history, including a typical research program from 97' (now you know what the cornell box is hehe!)

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/researc ... sport.html
http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/about/history.html
http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/online/box/history.html

Strangely the wiki on computer graphics history is broken and incorrect in a number of ways and D P Greenberg only gets a cursory mention.! This quote perfectly encapsulates his philosophy:

"But we still need our design tools! Ones that are not restrictive and are easy to use and very comfortable. That allow me to create. In a sense, I want to go back to where I started, with pen and ink and yellow trace. Where I am free to compose in silence or to classical music or alone with nature in the outdoors. Where I am free and yet connected and able to digitally doodle and sketch. The electronic future may rapidly be approaching the potential of the environments of the past."

—Donald P. Greenberg

so get brushed up people!

[def4d]

Thanks a lot Deflix, i'll read all the stuff this afternoon!
I'm quite impressed with the render you show, way better than what i could see, i can't imagine move in those scenes in real-time

Is it still usable? i mean with the today 3D softs? or is it a standalone etc?
I will search by myself of course, but you do resume so well !

[deflix]

I will provide a link to a copy (watch this space). It accepts 3ds file. I havent used it on modern hardware but may try.

[daros]

lightscape was a very good rendering software with two single issues: It was very complicated to build correct 3d models because "progressive refinement" algorithm didn't' liked intersecting planes. Lightscape wasn't very suitable for organic shapes rendering.
By side that it had a great but simple material model, powerful lighting tools ( the best ones i ever sow) Incredible baking capabilities (with geometry to texture functions), rock stable and easy to learn.
All baking technologies i know have the same problems as lightscape... intersecting planes and arganic surfaces.
some works i did with lightscape between 1997 and 1999:

(all volumetrics ar post process)



2600 IES lights!

[deflix]

I remember your work daros you were one of the true Lightscape masters! - really puts mine into the shade! Yes I remember the issues with curves and artifacts. It made a good modeller out you though - well disciplined - remember ! .....................................here are a few of mine:

[Ringas]

I really miss Lightscape, I would sit for hours watching the little triangles lighting up one by one!!!

[kami]

superb images! I especially like the second one from daros, but the others are also great!
and you could really walk in these worlds in realtime?

[Fernando Tella]

The light is impressive. I wonder what it could do nowadays if the development was still alive.

[Ringas]

You could navigate the view in real time, with no reflections and triangulated shadow edges. Actually, it was pretty cool for that time.

This is what it looked like:

http://www.ringas.com/pub/Lightscape/1.jpg
http://www.ringas.com/pub/Lightscape/2.jpg
http://www.ringas.com/pub/Lightscape/3.jpg
http://www.ringas.com/pub/Lightscape/4.jpg
http://www.ringas.com/pub/Lightscape/5.jpg
http://www.ringas.com/pub/Lightscape/6.jpg

Again, we are talking ages ago here. The next best thing was BMRT.

Tassos Ringas

[Ringas]

As a side note, Lightscape still exists, albeit a lot crippled, in Max and it's actually adaptive like the real thing. It's just not a scientific, quantitative application, it just make nice pics (you can't get a lux reading IIRC).

BTW, I also have mine installed, but I have to find the installation files and service packs. Actually, the images I posted were done in 2005!!!