[Frances]

Paying taxes is absolutely necessary. But what is done with those taxes is the concern. When my taxes (hard earned money) goes to help out illegal immigrants to pay for education, health care, and buy their home for them, that's when I stop feeling so "generous".

Yeah, and I don't like the War in Iraq, but I still pay my taxes.

[JDHill]

Since you feel under no obligation to pay taxes,

When did I even remotely suggest that?

Say thanks. Say thanks and pay up.

Sounds like a threat to me. And that's the core of my entire point - let's say that I didn't pay up...would you pull the trigger yourself, or? Because - somebody would, and you are actively supporting it. And that is the thing which I cannot do. It is NOT about being anti-tax, it is about being against coercion.

[Frances]

Since you feel under no obligation to pay taxes,

When did I even remotely suggest that?

Say thanks. Say thanks and pay up.

Sounds like a threat to me. And that's the core of my entire point - let's say that I didn't pay up...would you pull the trigger yourself, or? Because - somebody would, and you are actively supporting it. And that is the thing which I cannot do. It is NOT about being anti-tax, it is about being against coercion.

I meant say thanks by paying up. You obviously live in a different world if you're paranoid about being shot for not paying taxes.

[leoA4D]

W Obama! A peacefuller world is my wish.
In Italy, everybody knows that, we have a different kind of politicians ruling the country.
That's the reaction of our prime minister to the US elections:
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/galler ... oni/1.html

Funny but we know Berlusconi means well. Cheers.

[Bubbaloo]

Paying taxes is absolutely necessary. But what is done with those taxes is the concern. When my taxes (hard earned money) goes to help out illegal immigrants to pay for education, health care, and buy their home for them, that's when I stop feeling so "generous".

Yeah, and I don't like the War in Iraq, but I still pay my taxes.

I pay my taxes. I don't recall ever saying I don't. I said I don't like paying for things I disagree with.

[JDHill]

I meant say thanks by paying up. You obviously live in a different world if you're paranoid about being shot for not paying taxes.

As I do pay taxes, I am most definitely not paranoid about being shot. It is the principle that gets me, and the being shot scenario is just the most extreme case - what I do worry about is going through a 14 month audit like my dad's business did a couple of years ago. This was a totally random and causeless audit, which wrapped up with total taxes owed of zero, but nearly drove him into the ground. If you do not consider things like this (and the potential for them) to be a fundamental intrusion on your own personal life and well-being, then I am afraid it is you who is living in some alternate reality, and that there is no common ground for us to find here.

[Bubbaloo]

You obviously live in a different world if you're paranoid about being shot for not paying taxes.

Raided, robbed, imprisoned, shot. Take your pick.

[daros]

Paying taxes is absolutely necessary. But what is done with those taxes is the concern. When my taxes (hard earned money) goes to help out illegal immigrants to pay for education, health care, and buy their home for them, that's when I stop feeling so "generous".

I don't know in US but in Italy we are not generous with illegal immigrants. We do not pay for their education because they cannot bring their children in to the school. No welfare for them.
They cannot strike, they are not protected by the police under almost any circumstance, they cannot put their money into the banks, they cannot open any business.
But they are very generous with us. They do all kind of work witch no Italian wants to do for a 1/10 of the money. Even for big industries. A big part of the Italian economy is sustained by illegal immigrants.
They are not tourists.
That's why the government lets them enter illegally.
Then if they look for a place to sleep, probably a bed in a room with other 5 to 10 people they pay from 300-to 700 euro month because the Italian owner knows that they are illegal.
In this way they give back to the italians almost all they earned.
To enter legally in Italy it's almost impossible from 90% of the countries of the world because you need to arrive with a worker contract and many other funny requisites wich are impossible to obtain if you are not already here.

[jvanmetre]

JD-

That sounds like a nightmare from hell what you and your family had to go through...I suspected something as such.

So, I guess that means you are not teaching 19th century french political philosophy in your spare time?

jvm

[JDHill]

That is really interesting, Daros. Here it is similar in some ways, but very different in others. The state of things in the real sense is also very different from what it is in the political sense - illegal immigrants are, and have been, a large part of our actual economy as well, and I have seen this alot having been in the construction industry in the past. Politically speaking, they are treated as something of a generic pawn, which is continually passed between this political party and that, to be used in the rationalization of many different proposals. Many of our politicians are quite disingenuous in this, refusing in many cases to draw the real distinction between legal and illegal immigrants - they specify exactly what they mean only when it is expedient to their present argument. It is generally the same when the issue is discussed in our media, but that is to be expected. As it stands, I do not think there is any broad agreement at all on what, if anything, should be done about the situation. Personally, I don't particularly agree with the concept that being born on a particular piece of land gives you any special rights over someone who was not, but that part of the issue is really not on the national radar, as far as I've seen.

Hey Jim - it was definitely no picnic for him, and it tends to make a whole lot of previously abstract concepts into concrete ones in a damn hurry. Regarding philosophy, I just enjoy studying these things, though really I don't consider that particular writing to be philosophy at all. I just think it is one of the most consistent and logical proofs on the nature of self-justified law that I've encountered as of yet.

[iker]

I pay my taxes. I don't recall ever saying I don't. I said I don't like paying for things I disagree with.

That's the essence of democracy...

[leoA4D]

...illegal immigrants are, and have been, a large part of our actual economy as well, and I have seen this alot having been in the construction industry in the past. Politically speaking, they are treated as something of a generic pawn, which is continually passed between this political party and that, to be used in the rationalization of many different proposals. Many of our politicians are quite disingenuous in this, refusing in many cases to draw the real distinction between legal and illegal immigrants - they specify exactly what they mean only when it is expedient to their present argument.

In the past couple of years, the role of illegal immigrants has taken on a clarity: it is to force down the cost of labor countrywide by flooding the country with these folks. They have permeated through a wide variety of trades, not just agricultural or lawn care industries or restaurants but many of the better paying positions like construction. A further savings is that they do not ask for or get health care benefits. To further this objective, there is the relaxing of control of our borders and the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America" intended to end sovereignty by eliminating the borders with Canada and Mexico. Is anyone surprised that the people have been deliberately left out of this effort to bypass the Constitution or that very little of this has made TV and print news?

[ivox3]

To further this objective, there is the relaxing of control of our borders and the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America" intended to end sovereignty by eliminating the borders with Canada and Mexico. Is anyone surprised that the people have been deliberately left out of this effort to bypass the Constitution or that very little of this has made TV and print news?

Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America.

Both Lou Dobbs and Glen Beck both had stories on it and there may have been others -- I don't know. But the story has generally continued to go by quietly. With that said, ..it's very real as I understand it.

One big ass nation under God. It all seems to becoming more and more Star Wars like everyday. I am predicting soon a new World Congress of Nations.

[Stinkie7000]

One big ass nation under God.

If you lot put that on Dollar bills, I'll never say a bad thing 'bout the US again!

[simmsimaging]

I suspect the actual number of armed raids by the IRS is probably fairly low, and I also bet they are not crashing through the doors of very many suburban architectural visualization people. Tax evasion has been a tried and true way of attacking crime (organized and otherwise) for a long time. Your actual risk of having this happen to you, should you not provide armed resistance yourself, is probably not much of the odds of winning the lottery (and therefore probably making the issue moot anyway)

JD: I have read your points but cannot see how they really contribute much. It's fairly easy to take an idealistic standpoint and critique but I don't see where you have suggested workable alternatives. This type of system is clearly not perfect, but people are not perfect so there will never be one that is, but if you can come up with a workable alternative to use of force as *final* enforcer of law and order then by all means step up and do what no one else in history has ever done

As far as audits go - I have been audited and while I did not enjoy it I can see the purpose and value in it. They are, as I'm sure you realize, 'totally random' for a good reason. If it took your father 14 grueling months to go through the process then it is very possible that his own bookkeeping was a big factor in that (he may have had extremely complex paperwork, or it was very poorly organized ec.). Whatever it was, implying or stating that a 14 month (or whatever length) audit is grossly unfair process has almost zero justification without more facts.

Regardless, it is clearly a 'fundamental intrusion on your own personal life' - but who would argue that? The point is rather about the justification for that sort of activity from a social perspective, and that would need to be a statistical one at that - not anecdotal. It's too bad you had a rough time of it, but that hardly determines the overarching value of the system.

b