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By michaelplogue
#250895
OMG! Now he's posting in the past! He's got to be some kind of time traveller!!!! :shock:


:P :wink:
By Mr Whippy
#251231
You can't compare what the eye see's with what Maxwell makes. My eye has a constantly varying f-stop through exposure requirement, focus point, colour balance based on mental perception of expected colour, Maxwell can't do this for you.

Even your eyes looking at a screen corrupt the Maxwell output somewhat :)


I think this is a non-issue. That old painting with the scene correctly exposed still 'look' wrong, the baby half occluded by the adult, has the exposed side of it's head almost burned to white, yet the window panes are a lower light level than that. It looks un-natural.

The biggest issue with real looking images in Maxwell right now is white balance imho. Still waiting. Fed up of faking light temperatures and juggling things to make scene's look real or match with composite video/imagery, or worse, just adjust the image afterwards (bodge) in PS.

Dave
By mmhnemo
#251289
Well, referring to the 2 pictures showing the inside of a church I perceive the 2nd image as magnitudes better considering the tonal range. Just comparing the wood representations in both shots or the shadow areas leaves me no doubt the 'eye realism', as it was called, is the superior.

It is a matter of personal preference in the end.
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By def4d
#251298
mmhnemo wrote:It is a matter of personal preference in the end.
totally agree!
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By mverta
#253545
The philosophy behind Maxwell is to recreate photographed reality - as an LDR camera sees it. That's why we have a camera model with f-stops, vignetting, blades, glare, bloom, etc.

Photoreal has the word photo in it for a reason, and if you try and render "HDR" or "what my eye sees" images, they always look fake because we're trained to recognize LDR photography replete with its exposure limitations.

Maybe one day that will change, but until the general public has been completely reconditioned to a different standard, your renders will always look fake to the degree they violate what you'd normally capture with your camera.

For what it's worth, 99.999999% of the renders I see on this board which suffer from "not-yet-photoreal" would best spend their time making better materials, rather than worry about HDR/LDR, tonemapping, where the camera is, even lighting. A good material makes all the difference. Personally, every surface of every object has to have a custom map with randomness, dust, flakes, imperfections, warps, a scratch or two, etc., etc. etc, just like the real world does before it even begins to approach truly photoreal. I think even the cleanest product viz can benefit from this, albeit to a smaller degree.


_Mike
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By tom
#253574
Getting rid of over and under exposure in a photo is equal to messing with the sound mixer at the orchestra leveling the pipes and strings up to same loudness with the drums and vibes. Oh, no.. that'd absolutely be a disaster.
By Becco_UK
#253594
Maxwell is what CD's are to music - good, but a league apart from the real thing.
By Peder
#253602
Mverta and Tom!

No disrespect at all... U guys know much more about this than me, but I still think you are oversimplifying the issue. The tonal range available to us from Maxwell is dependant on many factors - the file format, the monitors tonal range, the printer and the paper we use to print and the distance from where we look at the print. We loose tonal range in every step of the way. What exactly are you referring to when you say that Maxwell attempts to simulate a physical camera, an analog film camera? Slide or negative film? Digital?

The interesting thing here is how we compress the tonal range without crushing the image information -or crushing it in the least destructive way.

I think that local contrast can be a valuable tool -as used in software like Photomatix. I agree that the results we see often look artificial, partly because we are not used to the look and partly because the images are overdone deliberately to get an "arty" look.

For the benefit of others I found this link informative:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutori ... -range.htm

Peder
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By NoahPhense
#253611
Mr Whippy wrote:You can't compare what the eye see's with what Maxwell makes. My eye has a constantly varying f-stop through exposure requirement, focus point, colour balance based on mental perception of expected colour, Maxwell can't do this for you.
I have loaded Maxwell v1.6 into my cerebral cortex, I will keep you posted
on the results.

- np :lol:
By Mr Whippy
#253828
mmhnemo wrote:Well, referring to the 2 pictures showing the inside of a church I perceive the 2nd image as magnitudes better considering the tonal range. Just comparing the wood representations in both shots or the shadow areas leaves me no doubt the 'eye realism', as it was called, is the superior.

It is a matter of personal preference in the end.
But if your eyes can't expose such a huge range as that 2nd picture shows in a glimpse. Maybe if you stand and look around for a minute at all the areas in the image, and then remember what it looked like, then that is it.

When you walk outside from seeing a film at the cinema the sky hurts your eyes as the eye reduces it's light intake. Now if you look back where you just came from, it is dark.

Another good example, light at the end of the tunnel. As you leave the tunnel your eye adapts and you see detail. 200 metres back in the tunnel and it's just a blob of white light with a bloom around it, even with a well focussed eye.

Indeed the fact the eye builds up an image from lots of small pickup points or exposures means you can't really compare it to a digital image anyway, or an image a camera exposes.

The eye has no focus point when you see something like the image used, everything you would 'notice' is in focus when you do so. The depth of field is constantly varying as your eye opens up and closes down to balance the light it takes in to resolve the incoming light to the eyes sensitivity range.


Look at any flattened HDRI image, they look un-natural, the dynamic range is squashed. What is *really* twice as bright, and the eye would notice as twice as bright, may actually only be displayed on a screen as maybe 10% brighter, because the range is compressed.

Compressed dynamic range images don't show anything realistic at all. They are un-natural and 'lossy'

Now if you had a monitor that could output HDR ranges then great, but even then your eye would then pick the range of values it wanted to optimise for, ie, anything too bright would white out if you looked into the shadows, and looking into the sky say, would black out the shadow detail.

They eye can't see a wide range all at once.

Fair enough to make a flattened range image, but they are far from natural. Personally I think a decent picture of a real life scene often brings out more beauty and interesting shadow/light, than an artificial image which can't capture a certain aspect.

But yes, personal preference. But all the best photographers out there don't go bracketing all their shots and making flattened HDRi's to make their images look better.
For stylish stuff they can look interesting, but that church looks so much nicer with blown out highlights and some depth to the shadows, rather than not much depth anywhere (imho)

:)

Dave
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By Leonardo
#253877
chrisnvp wrote:Lately I've been posting Pictures on this forum and 1 or 2 times now I've received a comment on how the background of my rendering through the window should be more over exposed.
Leonardo wrote:the leather bump seems off... too big, to intensive

Also, your background should be more over-expossed almost wite, if you'e after photo-realism


..oh, BTW, It looks great! :wink:
leo
Thanks for the comments I truly appriciate them.

What I'm getting at is not photorealism but Realism
In photography the aperatus of the camera can only display one exposure at one time, Where as the eye reveals all exposures at the same time. This phenom is called Dynamic range.
Here is something to try right now as you're reading this.....look around the room and find a window. Look out the window......Notice how the interior of the room is not underexposed to the eye like it would be in a Photograph? Now try the oposite. Look around the room to the left or the right of the window......Notice how the scenery outside is not overexpposed like it would be in a photograph? This is because God created the human eye to capture the full dynamic range of the scene you are looking at where as a camera is only a machine. The Camera industry is just starting to realize that photographs are not realistic and are developing ways around this
I have developed a way of Creating a high dynamic range renderings with Maxwell Render's cameras. Which is another post for another day.
Image Image Image

My point is that Leo was right when he said:
Leonardo wrote: Also, your background should be more over-expossed almost white, if you'e after photo-realism

..oh, BTW, It looks great! :wink:
leo
But what I'm humbly sugesting is that my renderings are more realistic than Maxwell's Native output can produce. The question that does remain is this:

Do you like them Photorealistic (a real photo) or Realistic (as in real life)?

Best regards
Chris
A year later My coment is still valid... it's not photo-real to tamper with the background like that :P :wink:
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By tom
#253892
Well said Dave. This discussion also reminds me 2 point/2,3 point perspective preference. I saw many people who thinks 3 point perspective depth is making the scene look distorted and 2 point is the correct look. They also work in 2 point perspective viewports. When I see a 2 point cube, I can only think it has a larger back face. In real life we see things in 3 point perspective and I still can't understand why in architecture most of the time 2 point is valuable. Shift lens is another story, too.
By Mr Whippy
#253981
bjorn.syse wrote:Hmm, what about Spherical Perspective? This is an interesting description:

http://www.treeshark.com/Persptut.html

- björn
Arghhh, my brain is frazzled :)

That is very interesting though. I did quite alot of technical 2/3 point perspective drawing at university as part of my civil engineering degree, and yet it was all wrong :D

What a waste of time ;)

I think I need to read that web page again a few times and let it sink in!

Dave

So, is this a known issue?