[Tim Ellis]

thats probably why english people has the drive on the right...
.... frankly i didnt find so difficult to get use to it ..( i mean blender not english way of driving)
. ... btw ... i cant print Tim's tutorial.. Tim can one print your tutorial or is not possible?

It should be possible. It might be due to the <center> tags in the html. I'll try and rework a printable version. I can't promise when I can do this though.

Tim.

[Tim Ellis]

Mihai, sorry I'm not just trying to lynch you over this, but your comments need replies.

Seeing as all software currently has to use the same user inputs (mouse, keyboard), the question becomes how do you most efficiently use those inputs?

If by setting unique mouse button mappings, Blender would achieve something much better in terms of productivity, I would agree, break the mold and go for it. But in this case it doesn't. So it seems things were added in order of development. Oops, that button is already mapped to that function, ok we put it somewhere else. This is really not a good way to proceed.

So how do the big apps like MaxnMayanXsi add new functionallity? Expect the customers to forget the old keystrokes, here are the new ones because we added another knife tool. We understand you used CTRL-Z for undo, but we've changed it to ALT+SHIFT+CTRL+Del, so we can add the new tool there.
It stands to reason that the first keystrokes added to code, say G,S,R for example, should remain as that throughout the apps life. Not to change them later once everyone has gotten used to them.

Three buttons on a mouse, with different Alt, Shift, Ctrl combos can go a very long way. If each combo is specific to one task (ie object mode, poly mode, edge mode, weight painting, drawing curves) you can have a very efficient workflow, and users can familiarize themselves faster. My opinion, use the same inputs to perform the maximum amount of tasks.

Please use Blender then, or at least try for a while. You have just described Blender's workflow. Unless you are again commenting on the lack of an industry standard for hotkeys in 3D applications.

Tim.

[Tim Ellis]

... But in this case it doesn't. So it seems things were added in order of development. Oops, that button is already mapped to that function, ok we put it somewhere else.

Eeeeexactly !
No pre-planing effort; just stuff/features piled together in an attic as they come along. That is exactly the impression I gleaned from it.

Well I guess this is the cost of open source programming.

However, can you tell me that ten years ago Autodesk or Alias had provisions in place for all added features to come? Do they do things any differently?

Tim.

[Tim Ellis]

not it doesnt necessarily... u place the 3d cursor where u want a new entity to be placed.. it can coincide with the pivot of an entity and used as athe pivot point but is an option ...

The 3D cursor is the single object I miss the most in other applications.

Any new objects are created with their pivot point at the 3D cursor. Use it as an aligner. Use it as a rotation/scale pivot point. There are many uses for it.

... the weakness of the programm are others imo... the snap system for instance seems to me lacking... but could be wrong because i am quite new at blender...

Snap system is ok but can take some getting used to. It works well with the 3D cursor.

another weakness... one can change the pov of a camera just moving it in hortographic views e not directly in the camera view.....

Cameras can be moved in 3DSMax ortho views and MXST when working correctly. How is this a weakness?

Tim.

[Tim Ellis]

On thing that I'd like to see with Blender is floating pallets/tools. I'm accustomed to working in multi-monitor mode, and all of the other programs I use regularly have this feature (Max, Photoshop, Poser), so I can spread out and leave my center screen uncluttered.

I use Blender with two monitors, it's very easy to set up.

Un maximise the Blender window when it's loaded. Stretch it across all monitors.

Next split the 3D window. Hold your mouse over the thin bar between the two header bars of the 3D window and the Buttons window, then press the middle mouse button. Confirm the split area with the split line in the 3D window. You can split the windows up how you wish then.

I tend to have one 3D viewport on one monitor and all the other areas on the second monitor.

When you have set the screen layout to suit, then press CTRL+U to save the user defaults. This saves a b.blend file which loads each time you open Blender.


Tim.

[Tim Ellis]

I'm really getting frustrated with some of the total disregard for standard keyboard commands that Blender ignores. There are certain shortcuts that are pretty much universal in nearly every program (at least in the Windows world).

Certain things like Ctrl-S to save, Ctrl-O to open a file, Ctrl-A to select all, F1 for Help, are the same in nearly every program I've used.

So who on earth would decide to use Ctrl-W to save, Ctrl-A to "apply objects size/rotation to object data", Ctrl-S for "Shear in edit mode", or F1 to Open a file????

How does that make the program easier to use? It's sort of like a builder putting the toilet in the kitchen instead of the bathroom. There's no reason why you couldn't put the toilet there, but if the only reason you did was because there isn't room in the bathroom because the refrigerator is in there....

Same problems I had when I tried to use Max and or Maya.

I think it's again down to how Blender was initially created and the lack of a standard across 3d apps.


Tim.

[Tim Ellis]

In blender, I still haven't figured out how to select an individual segment of a polygon in order to edit it. I can't even figure out how to apply a texture to an object - I literally will have to go through a tutorial to figure that out.......

Sorry but this is the same for a newcomer to 3DS Max. I still can't do what you've asked in Max, but I can do it in 3 keystrokes in Blender.

This goes back to what we've been saying about intuitive design. I pride myself in being able to sit down in front of any program - of any type - and become competent in using it in a relatively short time - just by playing around with it. I mostly attribute this to well designed, intuitive interfaces.

Me too, I was devastated I couldn't use Maya at all. Period. I have no inclination to try anymore either, which I expect is the case for most new comers to Blender.

However, Blender makes me feel like a complete idiot who has never turned on a computer before in his life...... (sort of like the old lady who thought you used the mouse like a gas pedal, and kept stomping on it to make the computer "go".... )

lol, I agree that Blender's initial 'click and go' ability leaves a lot to be desired, certainly without a tutorial.
I had to use a tutorial to learn how to use 3DSMax, there's not a huge ammount of click and go there either.

Tim.

[Tim Ellis]

So, . Blender eh? Good isn't it.

Conclusions:-

Yes unfortunately Blender can be a daunting enviroment that can be easily customized except for hotkey setup. (However if you can write code there's nothing to stop you changing them.)

Yes, it does have a unique way of using keystrokes, mouse gestures, clicks and combinations. Once you get used to it though, it's an incredibly fast workflow.

If you want to use it, I'm sure you'll apply yourself so that you can. It took me one month to understand the functions and learn the hotkey system and the last four years to get good at rendering.

To close, Blender is like Marmite.............. or


Tim.

[Fernando Tella]

It seems humans don't like which is different; it causes nerves and worries. Lynch the foreigner! Bring the torches!
It looks like Blender is just different from most extended apps, but not worse.
Hail Blender!

[tom]

Thinking that Blender is developed to be different than others is a funny idea. It's like saying Maxwell rejects the term "reflection" and uses "reflectance", so it's just trying to be different. More funny is thinking it's a result of arbitrarily stacked ideas and now we have Blender. Oh no, the developers are not that dumb, c'mon. What you don't feel comfortable to use doesn't mean your sense of comfort defines the standards, this is too much.

[Mihai]

what more intutive than pressing S to change size followed by the name of the axis if u want to size just in the direction of that axis?
tha same is true for R (rotate) and G grab... or shift D (copy) +xor y or z

Well, I'll describe how it works in XSI. You have keyboard shortcuts for scale, rotate move. When you press that shortcut, you can then either use the scale x,y,z handles in the 3D viewport, or you don't even have to have your mouse over them because you can use LMB,MMB,RMB to scale in one axis. So there is no axis name to choose first, and you don't even need to move the cursor over a handle, although you can if you want to.

Or, placing your cursor between two axis, will make it scale/move only in those two axis. How would I do this in Blender? Do I first press a keyboard shortcut, then select from a list the two axis I want to scale in, then scale?

..what could be more easier than u sing the tab for toggling from object mode to edit mode... ( just to make some examples)
... frankly i dont find it complicate and illogical...at all...

When entering edit mode then, can you edit polys/edges/points at the same time? What if you only want to edit polys? How can you do that?

How hard was Studio to learn then? Three mouse buttons and hold the ALT key.

It was easy because that's how it's usually done in all the major 3D applications, plus viewport navigation is something you do very often, but at the same time, you don't want to dedicate one or two mousebuttons just for that because they are valuable. So you use an optional key that when pressed, turns the three buttons into pan, zoom, rotate. This makes perfect sense to me. It seems in Blender, the three mousebuttons are tied to the same commands, whether you are in object mode or edit mode? What combination pans the camera? What if I want a smooth zoom which the scroll wheel doesn't allow? It's a bad idea to have to change keyboard buttons for viewport navigation, instead of holding just one keyboard button and changing pan, zoom, rotate with the three mouse buttons, since your fingers are already over those buttons, the buttons are big, and there are no other buttons there which you might accidentally press. This may sound like an insignificant thing but you tend to pan, zoom, rotate quite a lot so it's very important it's done in the smoothest way possible.

If LMB places the 3D cursor, MMB rotates the view, and RMB selects an object, in both modes, what do I have to do to select just some vertices?

[giacob]

When entering edit mode then, can you edit polys/edges/points at the same time? What if you only want to edit polys? How can you do that?

quote]
ctrl+tab give u the choise... oither u have tree icon on the header of the window
... for scale, move etc. u can use also the gizmo (here is called manupulator) ... but i frankly prefer to use s +x ( or xx for scale local).....
i have been using XSI for a while... u have a lot of keyboard shortcut there either and lot of menus and submenus... so frankly didnt find XSI more intuitive and immediate than Blender
... anyway.. i am far from beeing and expert users of blender.. just an happy newcomer ...

[lsega77]

Although I agree with many here as to the layout and design of the blender UI/GUI, I think it's important to keep in mind that, we all, to varying extents, are formulating our opinions based on a particular bias toward other applications.

What's interesting about this is that this bias can be a bit of a disadvantage toward the expansion of our skill sets. Consider an absolute beginner, that is to say zero experience in 3D modelling or rendering: ANY 3d app would prove to be an incredibly intimidating and daunting undertaking. Matter of factly, I know many a 'potential' CGI artist that has given up on different apps (or the industry altogether ) as they feel overwhelmed (and perhaps underinspired) "I mean shit! All I want to do is make a box! A freaking box!."

The 'intuitiveness' of any app is really deritive of the end user's overall experience(s). We're constantly comparing what this new app is doing relative to our experience with another said app. That being said, the absolute beginner, will have no 'intuition' from which to draw (thereby equalizing ALL 3D apps in terms of usability and learning curve).

But having no base (or bias) for said 'intuitiveness' can be a good thing as it will prevent the absolute beginner from having to 'unlearn' the methodologies of another app (ie. I draft in AutoCAD and Microstation. I don't know how many times I've entered ACAD command into Microstation and said 'Now why in the f&*k didn't that work!'

Many of the apps describe in this thread as being intuitive, I've personally found quite the opposite. I think the only app I've truly thought was 'intuitive' was rhino. However, if you consider the fact that I come from an ACAD background (as a command line user), rhino just seem to fit as the workflow was very similar IMHO.

Also, I think most apps are HIGHLY customizable. In fact before I truly get into the 'nitty gritty' of learning any new app, I try and figure out first how to customize it to something a bit more comfortable to what I'm used to. From there it's a bit (just a bit easier to learn).

Finally, you've heard this before, the artist 'makes (in a figurative sense)' the app, not the other way around. Plenty of Max, Maya, XSI, Sketchup, Rhino, Houdini, Poser, etc, etc user out there producing pure crap. Then there are users like Tim Ellis that can take an app like Blender and create absolutely stunning work.

So the point of my long tyraid.... Lighten the f&*k up people! It's free!
(which I know sucks considering the amount of money we put down to buy our apps).

Luis

[tom]

Well said Luis!

[Tim Ellis]

Or, placing your cursor between two axis, will make it scale/move only in those two axis. How would I do this in Blender? Do I first press a keyboard shortcut, then select from a list the two axis I want to scale in, then scale?

Nope use the middle mouse button. S to scale and then press middle mouse button and drag along the axis you want then release the middle mouse button.

When entering edit mode then, can you edit polys/edges/points at the same time? What if you only want to edit polys? How can you do that?

Use one of the three selection buttons in the header of the 3D window. There is one for vertex, edge, face and a fourth to turn off rear selection. These buttons will only appear in edit mode.

If LMB places the 3D cursor, MMB rotates the view, and RMB selects an object, in both modes, what do I have to do to select just some vertices?

Right click. My error I should have written right click selects whether in object or edit mode.

In the similar way that Studio uses Alt & RMB to zoom, you can use CTRL+MMB to zoom and SHIFT+MMB to move the view, & ALT+MMB to pan.

Finally, you've heard this before, the artist 'makes (in a figurative sense)' the app, not the other way around...............
.......So the point of my long tyraid.... Lighten the f&*k up people! It's free!
(which I know sucks considering the amount of money we put down to buy our apps).

Luis

Spot on mate. Cheers.

Tim.