[Maxer]

I understand your hesitation in wanting to send a printed image to the client before you've been paid. In some situations this may not be necessary but I find it elevates many problems when you’re trying to get approval on images. You also need to make sure you have a signed contract with whomever your dealing with, and spell out in the contract exactly what they will be getting for proof images. I put my name all over the proof images so it would be extremely difficult for them to use in a presentation and equally hard for them to Photoshop out.

[Leonardo]

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just for anyone reading this. DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER DOING A JOB FOR LESS THAN YOU THINK IT'S WORTH.

I'm dealing with two people with two different minds that come and check the process of my work at different times.
One says "white"

The other one says "black"

Then the first realize that "white" was not what he wanted, so he wants orage

By now I have put 3 times the time and effort that this project really deserves.... and I was dumb enough to accept a low bid (just because I needed the money for my Black belt test). This guys spend $15,000 per palm tree , they spend $1,000 per interior door !!! yet ask for $1k for my two renderings sounded outrageously expensive The though I could do them for $300 (both). I end up accepting the job for $600

I'm sorry to say it, but I'm such a dumb ass

[aitraaz]

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just for anyone reading this. DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER DOING A JOB FOR LESS THAN YOU THINK IT'S WORTH.

I'm dealing with two people with two different minds that come and check the process of my work at different times.
One says "white"

The other one says "black"

Then the first realize that "white" was not what he wanted, so he wants orage

By now I have put 3 times the time and effort that this project really deserves.... and I was dumb enough to accept a low bid (just because I needed the money for my Black belt test). This guys spend $15,000 per palm tree , they spend $1,000 per interior door !!! yet ask for $1k for my two renderings sounded outrageously expensive The though I could do them for $300 (both). I end up accepting the job for $600

I'm sorry to say it, but I'm such a dumb ass

Yup, pretty typical. You need to draw up a contract to avoid this, otherwise people will screw you into the ground. Its usually the nice person who gets it up the arse....

[Leonardo]

do you have a sample contract that I could look at?

I was thinking of not lowering my fee under any reason next time... but right now I'm to the point that I won't be taking any jobs at all

[aitraaz]

well i got burned a few weeks ago accepting a job for an arch studio and made two colossal errors, the first being not having insisted on *half of the money up front* & the second error was not insisting on using a contract (incredibly stupid in this case). The experience was such an infernal nightmare that i hope to never do another job without a contract, just some points i came up with:

1) All relevant drawings and materials (eg. texture maps, furniture, plants etc) MUST be provided up front before the work begins in order to make a PRECISE cost estimate based on the TOTALITY of the project which is to be CLEARLY understood from the beginning.

2) EXACT LIST of exactly the number and nature of all drawings to be produced.

3) ANY modifications to the project necessitating redoing work based on assumptions made from point 1. will lead to an ADDITIONAL cost of ______$.

4) ANY additional material which is added or modified DURING the project development will entail an additional cost of _______$

5) ANY additonal material or modifications to project will require a delay of ___ hrs (24 at least) before presentation of modified drawings. (this is to keep you from staying up all night when they expect massive modifications in really short time schedules)

6) ANY additional material and changes must be presented at a DECENT time (eg. NOT 8:30 at night when they go home or friday night etc) otherwise an additional cost will have to be added (eg overtime) or the waiting period from point 5 takes effect

etc
etc
etc....

You can add/subtract play with the numbers etc, but basically you look at everything that went wrong in this project and make it a clause in the contract, that way it won't happen again. And don't budge on prices or any of the points of the contract EVER. If people sense they can take advantage of you they will no doubt about it (well, not always but quite often)


EDIT: ups, forgot this one:

1). All print sizes MUST be communicated BEFORE work begins. Cost refered to in initial price estimate presume the following prices:

a) image resolution up to A4 (letter?) = ______ $
b) image resolution up to A3 (11x17?) = _____ $ + ______$ (additional cost for higher resolution)
c) image resolution up to A1 = _____$ + _______$ (additional cost for higher resolution).

etc...

I mean, for this last job they insisted on having all files .tif with a massive resolution and on the last day i discovered they printed th entire presentation on A4. Unbelievable....

[glebe digital]

Aitraaz's approach is very sound.

For fixed-price work, agree the full brief in writing beforehand.........any deviations are essentially 'off brief' and charged at your standard hourly rate.

I generally summarise briefing meetings in an email and await the greenlight, both parties will then have a record of agreed terms and it limits any confusion.

$1k for two renders is not ridiculous..........being flexible is a good thing but don't bend over too far or the inevitable happens.

[Maxer]

1) All relevant drawings and materials (eg. texture maps, furniture, plants etc) MUST be provided up front before the work begins in order to make a PRECISE cost estimate based on the TOTALITY of the project which is to be CLEARLY understood from the beginning.

This is the one you will have the most trouble with, most of the time the project is still in DD which means it's still changing even when they say "here is all the material you requested". Then they will come back a few days later and say "we just have a few minor changes that won't take you long to make........right!" The problem is your dealing with a designer and their very large ego, anything they want they expect to get no matter how hard it is on you.

[aitraaz]

The problem is your dealing with a designer and their very large ego, anything they want they expect to get no matter how hard it is on you.

Couldn't agree more, and of course it depends from case to case, but sometimes you've gotta point on quality and set down real concrete rules in order to keep things under control, and accept the risk that they might dump you. If your work is good, and you fulfill well all parts of your work (eg. delivering on time etc), most often it won't happen, but agree, its a fine line....

[Leonardo]

did I mention, I didn't ask any money down (I know where they live though )

[w i l l]

Aitraaz - So it's standard to ask for half up front then?

I was just reading a piece about a graphic designer called Alan Fletcher, supposedly one of the best ever who died a month ago. His theory was decide what you think they can pay and then double it. If they don't flinch at the price then it's not high enough.

[Maxer]

His theory was decide what you think they can pay and then double it. If they don't flinch at the price then it's not high enough.

I love that.....hell yes

[Leonardo]

I guess you need to be the best first

[aitraaz]

I was just reading a piece about a graphic designer called Alan Fletcher, supposedly one of the best ever who died a month ago. His theory was decide what you think they can pay and then double it. If they don't flinch at the price then it's not high enough.

well if your well established and you've got the balls by all means go for it, no harm in making some good cash, especially when you're dealing with clients willing to spend thousands on a single tree (like leonardo's case) who then try to cut prices on other parts of the project (viz for example). I guess it doesn't hurt to have an understanding on how budget spending works in many companies (obviously depends from client to client) in order to understand what you can ask for, and a good sense of reading people, business sense, marketing, etc can all be very useful in getting clients, maintaining good business relationships & getting PAID. (i have none of these skills lol )

Aitraaz - So it's standard to ask for half up front then?

I guess this depends from person to person, but i do think its pretty standard to ask for some money up front, half usually seems a correct figure. A relatively small percentage of clients makes this offer without being asked (i think once upon a time it was standard ethical buisiness practice - not any more lol).

At least in my case (excluding that recent nightmare i mentioned which came about through word of mouth), for *first time* clients you should ask for something up front, basically as a means of protection, as a means of defense against the 'worst case scenario,' which soon or later probably will happen. And that worst case scenario is that things break down *during work* for whatever reason, and you face the risk of not getting paid at all for your work & time and you have to suffer all the associated consequences (heartburn, nervous break down, drive-by shootings etc)...

I think the goal is to do it that way the first time round with a new client, and if things go well and it is a positive working relationship you can gradually move away from it, as such a client can be considered a 'trusted' client etc, but the first time around i would highly recommend safeguarding yourself and request some payment up front.

[lebbeus]

I'm going through a frustrating project right now (look at http://www.maxwellrender.com/forum/view ... hp?t=19686 for the examples of the modeling phase).

I put this proposal together:

PHASE #1: Modeling
Budgeted Time: 48hrs (approximately one weekend).
Deliverables: completed model, "clay" renders of proposed views @640x480px (additional proof of model completion--no materials or lighting)
Cost: $xxxx includes 2 scene revisions, additional revisions will be charged at $200 per scene revision**

PHASE #2: Draft Renders (all values in addition to PHASE #1)
Budgeted Time: 10hrs, not including render time (assuming 3hrs per view).
Deliverables: Two proof images (views as discussed) @640x480px with simple lighting and materials for review*
Cost: $xxx includes one revision per view, additional revisions will be billed at $100 per view per revision**

PHASE #3: Photo-real (all values in addition to PHASE #1 and PHASE #2; PHASE #2 is not a necessary previous step)
Budgeted Time: One calendar week (approx. 40hrs), not including render time (assuming 40hrs per print-resolution image)
Deliverables: Two proof images (views as discussed) @640x480px with complex lighting, materials, entourage, and special effects *** for review*
Cost: $xxxx includes one revision per view, additional revisions will be billed at $150 per view per revision**

*Print resolution images are approximately 3200x2400px (about an 8x10.5 image @300dpi) and considered final images that require client sign-off of 640x480px proof images prior to production. Rendering time will increase significantly for print resolutions; time required for print resolution images can be extrapolated from actual time required for the 640x480 images. There is no additional monetary cost for producing print resolution images unless changes are requested after final sign-off, additional changes are then billed at $350 per view per revision.

** a revision is a cycle of editing and review, not element changed unless more than 40% of the elements (model, materials, lighting, etc.) need to be revised at which point a revised fee will be negotiated.

*** Special effects, entourage and any required post-processing will only be applied to print-resolution images in the interest of speed and consistency. Examples will be shown for client sign-off prior to application. Any revisions after sign-off will be billed at $150 per view per revision.

I thought this was pretty good since I've been burned before with designers changing their minds once they start seeing the images…but what I neglected to consider was that they decided to print the 640x480 images and showed them to potential donors. I figured I didn't need to explicitly say they couldn't print the images until the client signed-off and the print res versions were completed. Silly me. Now they have sheets printed with their name on, no credit to me and they've used them for the intended purpose, oh and I haven't been paid yet. Supposedly I'll be moving on to Phase 3, but there's no guarantee and I really have no way to force them to pay me since they've already used my images and I can't refuse delivery. So the lesson here is, explicitly state that they can not print the proofs you send to them for review (or somehow disable that ability) and explicitly state that there will need to be some sort of artist release form that needs to be signed and payment rendered before delivery of the final images…

btw, anyone have a good artist release/copyright transfer form handy???

EDIT: they didn't flinch at the price, so I obviously wasn't high enough

EDIT 2: I just want to make it clear that it's the architecture firm that is giving me grief, not the NEAq--I don't deal with them directly

[misterasset]

I figured I didn't need to explicitly say they couldn't print the images until the client signed-off and the print res versions were completed.

What we do is tell them the proofs will be delivered in PDF format. We make the rendering, use Photoshop to save it to PDF and then password protect the file that they can't print it. They can open it and view it. They can't save it or print it. Now I guess if they get smart they can just "Print Screen" it and then print from a different program, but there's only so much you can do to prevent someone who's determined. Anyways, good luck with everything.

Chris