[Hervé]

very good points Glebe.. I don't know if you remember that TV ad for Lewis jeans... the 2 teens crossing rooms and breaking walls in a boy-girl competition... well because it was Lewis.. the advertising Co. and the tv producers charged them big Money... and then a couple months later someone did the same tv ad.. for a fruit juice... I mean it was supposed to be a spoof, but it looked just like the original... for 1/10th of the price Lewis had paid for.... hehe..

H.

[dilbert]

very good points Glebe.. I don't know if you remember that TV ad for Lewis jeans... the 2 teens crossing rooms and breaking walls in a boy-girl competition... well because it was Lewis.. the advertising Co. and the tv producers charged them big Money... and then a couple months later someone did the same tv ad.. for a fruit juice... I mean it was supposed to be a spoof, but it looked just like the original... for 1/10th of the price Lewis had paid for.... hehe..

H.

I guess then the question is, which production company would you rather be? The one who got the big bucks originally, or the one who duplicated the work at the same price for much less money?

Thats' what I mean about gauging what a client's willing to spend. I've never seen the Lewis Jeans add that you're talking about, but they obviously were willing to pay somebody a certain budget to get the job done. That money is going to go to someone, regardless of how "ethically and morally bankrupt" your quote is. I don't really see how ethics come into it, if the client is happy with the price and final product, who's to say what constitutes a good deal. I presume Lewis Jeans were happy with the final product, so in their eyes, the high market price was acceptable to pay. The big test is whether they come back as repeat business.

Think of it like buying a car. Some people are willing to walk into a dealership and pay full sticker price for that new hot car. Other people will go though days of fierce negotiating with the salesman to purchase the exact same car for a price they consider to be a good deal. Once both customers leave the sales lot with the same vehicle, who's to say who is more happy/satisfied with the purchase? The concept of value is very different to different people.

[glebe digital]

Well the big-bucks there are due to the team required to come up with the 'concept' and realize it as a deliverable........the cgi will be only one aspect, there's brand specialists, designers, film directors, writers, cast........that all costs.

I don't 'gauge' what a client is willing to spend, I ask if there's a budget and then the discussions of the realistic expectations [on that budget] are then begun.........in my experience clients want to work with people they trust, and you can quickly develop that trust by being transparent about your processes & rates.

That said, if your making good bucks and the work just won't stop coming in, well then you're sorted and more power to you!

[dilbert]

Glebe, you're absolutely right about the trust issue. Ultimately, keeping the customer happy (and more importantly coming back) should always be top of any disscussion of rates.

[x_site]

if i am not mistaken there is a nice post/thread posted before which coincidently applies to anyone doing freelancing work... it was a nice way to break down fees based on annual expenses, etc.... so for me works as a nice base rate for any job.


By the way great work!

[glebe digital]

if i am not mistaken there is a nice post/thread posted before which coincidently applies to anyone doing freelancing work... it was a nice way to break down fees based on annual expenses, etc.... so for me works as a nice base rate for any job.

This guy keeps cropping up:

[Hervé]

Dilbert, I was just saying so, because I wanted to show that in a few years from now, we will have a hard time to justify big prices differences with overseas poor countries that are going to break in that market...

.. as Fernando said, he's already receiving offers from Uruguay for 250.... How we are going to justify the differences is what we should all work on... saying to your future client... " ermmm.. Sir.. excuse me for the price I'm asking, but I have an expensive life over here...!"

your future client won't give a damn about your personal life costs problems...

Too technical you say...? you're better...? well let me tell you I've seen a TV Doc. about a company in India that analyzes the X-ray's taken in US & Europe for 1/10 of the price your own radiologist could work for.. pretty sensible area... but that market slowly goes away...

Now ok, there are always people that are going to prefer working with locals... but for how long...?

Last... the only companies that will be viable in Occident are the ones that are going to be best of class companies...

so here the table..

1- mediocre work >> relocated
2- medium quality work >> relocated
3- good work >> relocated
4- high quality work >> 50% relocated
5- Excellent work >> no relocated (for now)
6- First class top first work >> no relocation possible

I am personaly beween 2 and 3 level.. so I have not saved my b..tt yet...

If you are 5 or 6 , then start to bill even higher prices, no problem..

SWIM...?

[caryjames]

I don't know guys I think that it is more simple than already posted because I have seen it in my industry (jewellery)

If you have a unique product then you will always have work and you will get compensated appropriately. Clients can and will always find someone who will do the "same job" for less money. Often it is not the "same job" but they are told up front "no problem I can do that". However when the job is finished it is often nowhere near the same product.

All of us know the amount of time, effort and money that go into this field. Even if you relocate to a cheaper place to live you still are not going to be able to buy the newest Quad Core computer for $5. So you will still have that expense as well as others like training and software upgrades net access.....

In my industry everyone was going crazy because the new guys entering the field were charging very small amounts of money for technical areas inside the field (i.e. diamond setting). People flocked to them and had their pieces ruined. Eventually they started making their way back to the original craftsmen and are now paying the same money they were.

Bottom line is when people over the internet living in countries with a lower cost of living start communicating with ease and success to your clients and offering the exact same quality product with all the attendant design changes and miniscule details that you bring to the design then you are in trouble.

However I doubt that the "cheap" competition will bring the same level of communication and attention to detail for substantially less money than us/you. When and if the internet brings the "Walmart" effect to this field then the individual designer is in trouble.

Bottom line is as long as you have good relationships with your clients and can offer a unique product you will be fine.

I think that it is good for us to discuss these topics because it helps us all stay on the same page.

Thanks for listening to that rant
Cary

[glebe digital]

Yeah it's interesting to get so many viewpoints cary

I googled for 3d rates and got this:
http://www.ifreelance.com/find/provider ... ba=2&sc=57

Interesting range, $20-$80hr mostly..............haven't looked at any of their websites, so don't know what they're offering in terms of quality.

[Mattia Sullini]

Ok. This is the fare rate i could consider fair. For the job we are talking about, the subject of this topic, would then mean, considering something like 20hrs spent on it, a price ranging from 400$ and 1600$. This is reasonable.

Everything more that could be billed is superior technical capacities and knowledge that go beyond the simple previz and the "trust factor" glebe talked about, because what a client is really interested in is to respect timetabels and to be sure he would get exactly what he asked for.

And this is the only reason why we are not going to be unemployed. The virtualization of human relationships, that has been the Eldorado in the last 90ies, has proved to be for the most part a myth in other fields, and i see no reason why it shoul be different in ours...i do not think that a client would put his b..ls into the hand of a guy living in Uruguay he will never meet (i hope so, at least!)

[Hervé]

You're saying between $400 and $1,600.. well, I was saying $500.. so I was not far.. I mean sorry but I would not give more for these renders.. although they are nice.. If I was to give you $2,000 for it, then how much a render by Tora (Ben) would cost..? $10,000...?

You're right Mattia..

"Everything more that could be billed is superior technical capacities and knowledge that go beyond the simple previz...."

but for this Mattia... don't under-estimate people... my b...s would not be more confortable in New-yoker's hands..

...."I do not think that a client would put his b..ls into the hand of a guy living in Uruguay he will never meet (i hope so, at least!)"

Yes we all hope Mattia... this is why Ron wants to make a guild... I kinda like the idea... and I like the word Guild... Guild...

[Tora_2097]

Well,
Of course rates differ from country to country. One has to calculate ones needs and costs and this will reflect on the hourly rate of course.
if you task a profesional studio (maybe the company I work for) you will not get away with $500. This is what perhaps a lonely freelance artist at home may charge since his costs are way lower than a companys one.
An estimate like Buballo made it on the first page is a more realistic value and comes slowly (hehe ) into the range what we would possibly charge for a shot like this.
Bu (!)t: we would offer a broad range of services besides just delivering a rendering, things the average freelance might not be to do.
Like:
Customer care
Huge knowledge base, experts in various fields
Development of custom tools,
Software for interactive online reviews
Custom furniture at no charge, Furniture design
Renderfarm service
Sound design, compositing
...etc. Things like that are the reasons why you hire a pro hence the budget.

[Bubbaloo]

...

[shen.de]

....... And I suspect that L'oreal has more than a couple of bucks to throw around .

well ask around you.. this is where you make the mistake... the bigger the company.. the less they'll pay...

my experience goes in a different direction. with a low price a lot of huge companies think of low quality - in fact they are used to a high salleries.

of course they're also trying to pick good deals but they definitly think in other dimensions

[ivox3]

if i am not mistaken there is a nice post/thread posted before which coincidently applies to anyone doing freelancing work... it was a nice way to break down fees based on annual expenses, etc.... so for me works as a nice base rate for any job.

This guy keeps cropping up:

Just saw that Stu ...... Yep. Where is that post .....? hehe... At least Xsite got something out of it ...