[jdp]

I'm sorry I am not very up to date with diplacement.
If I understood correctly fry displace is basically a geometry displacement like the one already present in most common sfw, am I right? if so I guess it is quite memory hungry... and what about vray displacement? same thing or micropoly? if I am not wrong I seem to remember it quite more quick than max displacement and they talk about microdisplacement, but I did not use it so often...
Anyhow Jozvex, I suppose that some of us are not able to obtain displacement in their 3d package, so some sort of displacement should be useful at least for them....

[glypticmax]

I think displacement is an essential tool in designing products and making renders. I would not expect Maxwell or Fry to be competitive with Maya, Max or C4D. In Cinema with Mograph I can use the scroll button and change my displacement display in real time. And that is just one of the many options I find essential. Expecting that from a render engine may be a bit much. So I would expect my product displacements to be done in my modeling soft.
But when it comes to rendering and I want to displace something in the environment, it would be very helpful (time saver) if the render engine accomodated that desire.
Competition is generally a good thing for consumers (us). So I can only hope the Maxwellian Community benefits from the introduction of Fry. It may also help NL focus on essential enhancements.

[Hybaj]

Posting here pictures of Fryrender developement may have positive effects on NL team. It's like telling them "Ha.. Feversoft is a smaller company and with less time they'll do more than you.. do something NL"

Seriously Fry is winning in my head.
The speed does seem faster and the features.. yummie

[ricardo]

Posting here pictures of Fryrender developement may have positive effects on NL team. It's like telling them "Ha.. Feversoft is a smaller company and with less time they'll do more than you.. do something NL"

Seriously Fry is winning in my head.
The speed does seem faster and the features.. yummie

Ok, so I will byte the bait : What holds you here? So long, bye bye.

[glypticmax]

Seriously Fry is winning in my head.

Sooooo, where is your diamond render?
Or anybody elses that uses Fry Baby?
Ooops, I mean Fry Beta.
No disrespect intended, I'm sure.
I don't think NL needs images on their Forum to motivate them. Well, unless they are 12 year olds, which I doubt.
I'm feeling kind of juvenile at the moment. Time for pasta.......

[Jozvex]

I'm sorry I am not very up to date with diplacement.
If I understood correctly fry displace is basically a geometry displacement like the one already present in most common sfw, am I right? if so I guess it is quite memory hungry...

Yes you are correct as far as I know. To be honest I don't own Fry myself, but from what I've seen it looks to be just subdividing the mesh into LOTS of triangles to approximate the displacement. In Maya this is called 'feature displacement' and you can save the result onto the mesh like I did in the above render. It works, and you're right that for people who don't have many/any displacement options in their host application, it's an ok start.

It's a pretty ancient technique though and you lose half the benefits of what displacement is about. When I think of displacement mapping I say:

1. Hooray, I don't have to model insane amounts of detail into my object. (they get this benefit)
2. Hooray, I don't have to hold in memory, and-render, a trillion polygons to see that detail. (this is where feature displacement sucks)

You basically just get a regular poly object with an insane amount of detail modelled into it for you.

and what about vray displacement? same thing or micropoly? if I am not wrong I seem to remember it quite more quick than max displacement and they talk about microdisplacement, but I did not use it so often...

VRay has micropoly displacement, as does Mental Ray, Renderman, FinalRender etc etc. It's much much better in every way. Way better displacement detail because the rendered triangles are 1 pixel in size or less! But, you only need to hold the super detail in memory for the specific tile/or pixel/or area of the image you're rendering (depending on the renderer).

Anyhow Jozvex, I suppose that some of us are not able to obtain displacement in their 3d package, so some sort of displacement should be useful at least for them....

Yes you're quite right about that.

It's just a bit odd because both Cinema4D and 3ds Max have displacement-to-mesh features like Maya, and those are the only two plugins Fryrender has. So what are they actually gaining? I guess they don't have to display the result in the viewports.

[Hybaj]

I don't think NL needs images on their Forum to motivate them. Well, unless they are 12 year olds, which I doubt.
I'm feeling kind of juvenile at the moment. Time for pasta.......

I forgot to write that people who post the pictures probably think that they will motivate. I don't post them btw
But to be honest the NL was behaving much worse than 12 old in the RC phase.

Renderers are a business and since NL lost its monopoly on the unbiased renderer market there's no point in being over-loyal to them. Sure we invested our hard earned money in it but if we can get something which is much better why don't we go for it (If I had money.. heh)?

Obviously people are bitchy mostly because of the things that happened in past. Not just because the product seems a bit inferior to others now. People would be much more calm and satisfied if they knew what's really happening in the dev area. But since they know nothing they're jumping conclusions and starting panicking. There has to be someone who's going to reassure customers about the details of keeping up with the competition. Just few words won't do. People need to see proof (pictures, features, graphs, statistics).

Obviously customers are under a great pressure from the thoughts of buying an inferior product which could mean a disadvantage against the other players on their markets which own the other product. And that means less profit in the long run. And since they know almost nothing about the future of their product, their thoughts of being less competitive are highly combustible and are creating a great stir quite often. What's funny about this phenomenon is that people are thinking of taking an revenge by buying the other product. Revenge is also a completly typical human nature. But why am I wasting time explaining this.. it's logic and it's happening.

And it takes such a little effort in to change this. Maybe 12 yrs old kids don't know how to do it. Or maybe a group of grownups know exactly why are they doing it.

Jozvex : How can you be sure that what's fry doing ain't micropoly?? Since I know a bit from the rendering theory I highly doubt that they implemented silly rendertime subdivision displacement to plaster the need for micropoly displacement (it would be a big LOL for the feversoft if they really did something like this).

The memory thing ain't the proof. Try to hit alot of micropolys across the screen with tiny rays and not take those little areas somehow into memory (little areas with LOADS of geometry). You can never make it ram free. With adjustments it can eat less and less ram. It's just not that easy with a path-tracer i guess. Easier with a scanline or a typical raytracer.

[Micha]

... Vray seems to use micropolygons and PPT too. Or?

[Jozvex]

Jozvex : How can you be sure that what's fry doing ain't micropoly??

Well, I can't be *sure* without using it or hearing definitively from an owner, but I'd be very surprised if it is micropoly. I know some others who are quite skeptical also but, I'll take the chance and be the one to voice it here. Apart from the memory comments and the others who are very suspicious, this render looks quite rough and jagged in its displacement:

<was exhibit A but removed it>

A lot like crazy triangulation in the crevasses. Hey, I'm happy to be wrong, I guess we'll find out sooner or later! I might be surprised and impressed.

By the way the way, what is the lens shift feature?

[pluMmet]

I don't think NL needs images on their Forum to motivate them. Well, unless they are 12 year olds, which I doubt.
I'm feeling kind of juvenile at the moment. Time for pasta.......

I forgot to write that people who post the pictures probably think that they will motivate. I don't post them btw
But to be honest the NL was behaving much worse than 12 old in the RC phase.

Renderers are a business and since NL lost its monopoly on the unbiased renderer market there's no point in being over-loyal to them. Sure we invested our hard earned money in it but if we can get something which is much better why don't we go for it (If I had money.. heh)?

Obviously people are bitchy mostly because of the things that happened in past. Not just because the product seems a bit inferior to others now. People would be much more calm and satisfied if they knew what's really happening in the dev area. But since they know nothing they're jumping conclusions and starting panicking. There has to be someone who's going to reassure customers about the details of keeping up with the competition. Just few words won't do. People need to see proof (pictures, features, graphs, statistics).

Obviously customers are under a great pressure from the thoughts of buying an inferior product which could mean a disadvantage against the other players on their markets which own the other product. And that means less profit in the long run. And since they know almost nothing about the future of their product, their thoughts of being less competitive are highly combustible and are creating a great stir quite often. What's funny about this phenomenon is that people are thinking of taking an revenge by buying the other product. Revenge is also a completly typical human nature. But why am I wasting time explaining this.. it's logic and it's happening.

And it takes such a little effort in to change this. Maybe 12 yrs old kids don't know how to do it. Or maybe a group of grownups know exactly why are they doing it.

Jozvex : How can you be sure that what's fry doing ain't micropoly?? Since I know a bit from the rendering theory I highly doubt that they implemented silly rendertime subdivision displacement to plaster the need for micropoly displacement (it would be a big LOL for the feversoft if they really did something like this).

The memory thing ain't the proof. Try to hit alot of micropolys across the screen with tiny rays and not take those little areas somehow into memory (little areas with LOADS of geometry). You can never make it ram free. With adjustments it can eat less and less ram. It's just not that easy with a path-tracer i guess. Easier with a scanline or a typical raytracer.

Well said. glypticmax seems to have taken Mihai's position (now that Mihai's official Ateam) by mocking those that try to get a reaction out of NL.
________________________________________________

Ok, so I will byte the bait : What holds you here? So long, bye bye.

Everyone who can post here has money invested. Keep that in mind.

[Frances]

Jozvex : How can you be sure that what's fry doing ain't micropoly??

Well, I can't be *sure* without using it or hearing definitively from an owner, but I'd be very surprised if it is micropoly. I know some others who are quite skeptical also but, I'll take the chance and be the one to voice it here. Apart from the memory comments and the others who are very suspicious, this render looks quite rough and jagged in its displacement:

http://surrealstructures.com/fryrender/*

A lot like crazy triangulation in the crevasses. Hey, I'm happy to be wrong, I guess we'll find out sooner or later! I might be surprised and impressed.

By the way the way, what is the lens shift feature?

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Please do not link my fryrender images here in any way. They are intended only for registered members of the fryrender community.

[Maximus3D]

Hm, perhaps i should be clear too. Please keep Fry discussions on your Fry forum and not here. Thank you and good bye.

/ Max

[VisualImpact]

I know some others who are quite skeptical also but, I'll take the chance and be the one to voice it here. Apart from the memory comments and the others who are very suspicious, this render looks quite rough and jagged in its displacement:

oooh not the others

[andretto]

Hm, perhaps i should be clear too. Please keep Fry discussions on your Fry forum and not here. Thank you and good bye.

/ Max

[glypticmax]

[quote="pluMmet"][ Well said. glypticmax seems to have taken Mihai's position (now that Mihai's official Ateam) by mocking those that try to get a reaction out of NL.
________________________________________________

Actually, I haven't followed this enough to know how to take Mihai's position. NL has earned every bit of ill will as a result of the birthing process of Maxwell. I sat that out and watched from the side lines.
Those days are a gone dog as far as I'm concerned.
I just think the content of some of the posts appear to be by people trying to start a food fight. The idea that such posts would be beneficial or speed development of Maxwell seems ill conceived to me. The nah nah nah-nah nah aspect I find repulsive.
Posters of images they've copy/pasted without enough information to offer real insight easily make a mixed impression. I think Frances has taken the reasonable and professional position in this regard.

I joined the Fry Forum to follow its development just as I joined the Rhino Forum and the C4D Forum. Anybody that would hope to follow Rhino on the Alibre Forum or Cinema on the Maya Forum would seem to have some misconceptions about how best to benefit from following a forum. Following Fry on the Maxwell Forum seems equally curious.

I look forward to the introduction of Fry Render speeding development of desireable features within Maxwell. This happens as a natural result of competition in the business world. In your face posts will add little to that process in my opinion. To assume such posts are necessary for NL to be aware of Fry's features and develop pace seems naive at best. Being aware of the competition is one of the pillars of any business plan.

Time to go check out the Fry Forum to see if anybody has posted anything with interesting refraction, caustics of all stripes and dispersion. No prisms or gems to date though.