[glebe digital]

There is an NDA..... it states that all IP rights, design rights, copyright, trade marks, patents, etc remains with the client. The client also owns any documents or designs supplied by the client (not supplied by me..... as far as I can see).

He supplied a 2D Autocad drawing. I built the model and even suggested design changes/improvements which he went with.

So I think what I'm trying to find out is.... although the original design and concept is his (as an Autocad sketch) does that mean he then owns the 3D model and render images? I mean 99% of the work was mine. This is what I don't really understand... can a client give a verbal demand to not show an image (even if it's their confidential design that they dont want to enter the public domain) when I created 99% of it and could class it as my own artwork. It's their concept, but it's still my 3D model and render images. And in fairness that is the product!

Ah well that's different.........obviously one would need to see the NDA in full, but in most cases a properly worded NDA will be watertight..........and in that case you can't do shit with anything.

Notch it up to experience, move on.

[rusteberg]

a verbal agreement is as binding as a signed contract.

not quite........

like it has been said here, you need a written agreement with an article which specifies rights/ownership.
underneath the copyright article, i have two lines which which state:

consultant may publish any computer generated imagery for marketing intent purposes
consultant may not publish any computer generated imagery for marketing intent purposes

clients usually have no problem with you showing images, or initial "with prior consent", or check the may not option if the project is under a non disclosure....

it's also wise to have a provision which states that consultant has ownership to everything within the production pipeline including models, textures, scripts etc, etc..

the bottom line, it's better to be safe than sorry. if your client doesn't want you to show any of the images, but you do, then you have to decide how valuable that client is to you...

[Hervé]

sorry to highjack a little Will..

If you show your render, there is not much thay can do about... I had an inverse similar story.. (well sort of.)

These people came to me 3 years ago, while they were in Design school ... they had no money, but I liked their project,
so I designed a vase for them from an old vase I have here (for real) .. and sent them the model..
Everything was fine, it was for a school project... BUT 3 years later.. they decided to make it commercial..
They took my render (I have the model... they don't.. just the render - done with Fprime at that time.. hehe)
.. anyway.. They contacted Royal Delft Co. and remade it... real.. no credits for me.. and they don't even answer my mails anymore... !

see here... (the now real one... and my renders.. because at start, it was just going to be an animation...)
http://www.designfront.org/?p=215

What can I do... well not much... going to Court to sue Front Design from Sweden, Royal Delft from Holland, and the editor MOOOI would cost me big $... and a looooong process... and they know the risk for them is very tiny.. so they take advatage of it..

Voila... I am not saying go Illegal Will.. but if it's your work.. just show it.. !

[glebe digital]

Client vendor relationship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

[kami]

if your client doesn't want you to show any of the images, but you do, then you have to decide how valuable that client is to you...

I'm not so sure about it. You could also risk a legal argument. You really have to think trough if it's worth it!
I would accept the clients wishes in this case and ask if there's any chance you'll be able to show the images in the near of far future. And ask them for a reason!

[w i l l]

Ah well that's different.........obviously one would need to see the NDA in full, but in most cases a properly worded NDA will be watertight..........and in that case you can't do shit with anything.

Notch it up to experience, move on.

This is the NDA.....

We hereby agree that the client (owner) owns all intellectual property rights in the designs supplied to us or on behalf of the owner including any documents or other materials relating to such designs and any further designs supplied by the owner from time to time (the ‘Products’) and that we are bound by the terms of this agreement.

1. We acknowledge that all copyright, design rights (including both registered and unregistered if applicable), trade marks, patents, know how, confidential information, trade secrets including but not limited to concepts and themes and other intellectual property rights (collectively without limitation the Intellectual Property) in or relating to the Products vests in and remains with the owner.

2. We acknowledge that by virtue of the owner’s exclusive ownership of the intellectual property we may not now or at any time in the future use or exploit, or authorise or procure another to use or exploit, the intellectual property without the owners prior written permission and in particular (but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing) we will not use the intellectual property in relation to any other project, competing or otherwise.

3. The provisions of this agreement shall extend to any details regarding the products or the intellectual property supplied to us by the owner in the course of any correspondence or discussions occurring as a consequence of this agreement and all the provisions of this agreement or otherwise, shall take effect and be interpreted accordingly.

4. In the event that we become aware of or suspect any infringement of the intellectual property we will forthwith notify the owner and take all reasonable action and co-operate with the owner in taking any action to limit and remedy any such breach.

5. This agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of England and we hereby submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts.

[glebe digital]

My reading of that is you should not publish your renders anywhere.........ok, he might not sue you, but do you want to take a chance on that?

Also think of your reputation, you don't want to cultivate the idea that you're unprofessional.......even when clients 'stick you'.......that's exactly the time when you show your professionalism.

Have you been paid?
If not, you can revoke your agreement for the client to use your images, however you will need to have a solicitor draw up documents detailing the withdrawl of consent.......and fully itemizing the content you delivered, with proofs........any good copyright lawyer can do that for you.

[yanada]

My reading of that is you should not publish your renders anywhere.........ok, he might not sue you, but do you want to take a chance on that?

Also think of your reputation, you don't want to cultivate the idea that you're unprofessional.......even when clients 'stick you'.......that's exactly the time when you show your professionalism.

Have you been paid?
If not, you can revoke your agreement for the client to use your images, however you will need to have a solicitor draw up documents detailing the withdrawl of consent.......and fully itemizing the content you delivered, with proofs........any good copyright lawyer can do that for you.

INDEED

I know why..... it's 3. But I'm not too worried about why they don't want me to show it (although I would be with any other client), I'm more concered about whether I'm legally allowed to show it.

That is totally FUCKING unprofessional

one the reasons why we always give a very detailed and specific contract to all our associates...

[yanada]

Also note not everyone in the forum is a CG Artist, There are people who may want to see portfolios, commission Artists etc.

Sorry to say some of your statements gentlemen Do not scream HIRE ME

[w i l l]

It may be 'unprofessional' but it's also based on emotion. It's quite hard to be completely business minded/robotic and not take something personally when you put yourself out for months to help someone on a tight budget and they begin to take the piss and eventually make things difficult for you. You at least expect some consideration from their side and if not then I can't be either considerate or 'professional' with them. I've dealt with 2 years of snotty and demanding corporate emails from somebody who fundamentality doesn't understand what he actually wants and can't appreciate that the work that I'm doing is of value. I've bit my tongue on many occasions and I've supplied renders (for a very low price) which he has been showing as 'photos' (which haven't been questioned) to market 'his' design (of which a lot of input is mine). I've helped him to a VERY professional level and pushed the guidelines on my part a lot. But no more... go find someone else to do the same job for the same price.

To be honest I couldn't give a shit whether you think this is unprofessional (and also whether this taints my name). It comes down to more than that. I've had enough of being fucked over. I now know..... to not 'help out' any client with regards to design or rendering. If they can't pay or at least present something of value for my time then I can't do the work (and yes I know this is normal but I am actually quite helpful! and would have assumed the client would have consideration for this). If I can't get the work then I'll stick to making money another way and I'm not doing ANYTHING any more for any stupidly low rate. I'd like things to be based on word of mouth, trust, consideration and fair play but it seems that every job, as a safeguard, must now be based on small print, a written contract and strict guidelines. And I just put this situation down to experience no doubt.

[ivox3]

It may be 'unprofessional' but it's also based on emotion. It's quite hard to be completely business minded/robotic and not take something personally when you put yourself out for months to help someone on a tight budget and they begin to take the piss and eventually make things difficult for you. You at least expect some consideration from their side and if not then I can't be either considerate or 'professional' with them. I've dealt with 2 years of snotty and demanding corporate emails from somebody who fundamentality doesn't understand what he actually wants and can't appreciate that the work that I'm doing is of value. I've bit my tongue on many occasions and I've supplied renders (for a very low price) which he has been showing as 'photos' (which haven't been questioned) to market 'his' design (of which a lot of input is mine). I've helped him to a VERY professional level and pushed the guidelines on my part a lot. But no more... go find someone else to do the same job for the same price.

To be honest I couldn't give a shit whether you think this is unprofessional (and also whether this taints my name). It comes down to more than that. I've had enough of being fucked over. I now know..... to not 'help out' any client with regards to design or rendering. If they can't pay or at least present something of value for my time then I can't do the work (and yes I know this is normal but I am actually quite helpful! and would have assumed the client would have consideration for this). If I can't get the work then I'll stick to making money another way and I'm not doing ANYTHING any more for any stupidly low rate. I'd like things to be based on word of mouth, trust, consideration and fair play but it seems that every job, as a safeguard, must now be based on small print, a written contract and strict guidelines. And I just put this situation down to experience no doubt.

And now, your education is complete.

[yanada]

18 months ago. post from you again w i l l... [Claiming money] http://www.maxwellrender.com/forum/view ... ht#p257624

my advise back then

I will personally forget this one, take it as a lesson

For the next project I recommend:

A. Send Invoice to ...

B. Ask and Wait for PURCHASE ORDER from ...

C. Is tweaking if required within this PO agreement? (you could end up working for free).

D. I could go on and on but here is some help from the pros.

http://www.thedesigntrust.co.uk/chapter12.htm good place to start from

http://www.patent.gov.uk

http://www.ipo.gov.uk

http://www.dacs.org.uk

http://www.contractshop.co.uk

18 months later still in the same shit. Should I fill sorry for you? I did back then, but NOT now. You are simply not learning and on top of that you full of attitude.
.
.
enough said

[w i l l]

Er no, that's a different situation altogether. That wasn't about helping someone out/copyright question, that was about an individual not paying. And your advice.... would have been no use whatsoever in that situation.

Great call on my personality judgement..... from a forum. I'm not really sure that 'attitude' is the worst personality traite. Not in my life anyway. Continue with your 'professionalism' and keep your judgements to yourself. Follow the crowd. Kiss arse. Get 'hired'. You know how it works I'm sure.

[w i l l]

....... and that has no relevance to this situation. This is different, it's the cients design. My original post is basically asking a simple question of; do I own copyright of my render images or can I show my render images/artwork? There is a lot of grey area in that hence why I asked here.

I have learnt from the previous situation of which you seem to have no concept of; because inividuals in the UK club scene don't really take too well to PO's etc. My conclusion was to not work for individuals without a registered address unless they paid a percentage of the total in advance. Fair enough.