[JesperW]

Well, RC2 still is buggy, but I can clearly see how it is now possible to create a much better workflow between SWX and MR than it was in the beta.

Some things strike me as important workflow-wise now that I've tried to take a full design from SWX "from scratch":

1. The plugin creates one material per object in the model, so when I open the .mxs in Studio I have a gazillion materials named default_material_0_123123123_123123123 or similar. Not fun. The plugin needs to check each new material it wants to create againt the ones already created, and use to old one if it has the exact same set of parameters. Then I can go into Studio, rename the material to something sensible and update all bodies simultaneously.

2. Hierarchy is not preserved. When I get to studio I have about 200 objects called ExtrudeNnn or FilletNnn or SweepNnn in a big mess. Not very navigateable. I certainly hope the .mxs database has a possibility to store object hierarchy, otherwise it's a bit of an "Ouch"...

3. (This is a Studio issue nothing to do with SWX actually ) When I select an object in the 3D Viewport the Object List window needs to scroll to make that object visible, now I find myself scrolling through 10 pages in the list looking for that highlighted object...

4. I kind of wonder if there has been any thought given to updates? Because of SWX:s retarded texture management I see myself not using the plugin material assignments much, rather just tossing the model over to studio and do all material and camera work there. So when the model is updated, the new version needs to be able to pick up materials, cameras and mappings from the old .mxs. I know this is a complicated process to do well. I'm just mentioning it at this stage, I can provide lots of thinking on how to make it as smooth as possible if you want....

So all in all, lots of possibilities to create an awesome environment, but for the moment not very smooth.

/j

[John Layne]

Well thought through Jesper

1. Agree--The object names need to match the part file names and needs to collapse and expand to show the feature tree of the part.

2. Agree-

3. Agree- even though I haven't got that far with the plug-in yet.

4. Totally agree - SolidWorks management of textures is a complete Joke, we will have to apply textures in the Standalone. Unless NL wants to figure out how to bypass SolidWorks textures in the Plug-in.

[juan]

Hi Jesper & John

1. The plugin creates one material per object in the model, so when I open the .mxs in Studio I have a gazillion materials named default_material_0_123123123_123123123 or similar.

Well this is not exactly like that. The plugin creates materials per objects which have not any other material applyed. If you create a material and you apply it to all the objects maxwell will create only two mateerias (this one you have created and an auxiliar one necessary for internal purposes)
Btw it can be improved and in fact we will do it soon to make your workflow easier.

2, 3 We will try to do it soon.

So when the model is updated, the new version needs to be able to pick up materials, cameras and mappings from the old .mxs. I know this is a complicated process to do well. I'm just mentioning it at this stage, I can provide lots of thinking on how to make it as smooth as possible if you want....

4. We are improving this area. This is how I would work now: Let's say you have an assembly with 10 components and you have exported it to an mxs and open t in MS studio. Later you want to change just one component. You can come back to SW, change this component, and export a new mxs (with other name) with the rest of the components hidden or suppressed. You can import it in studio into the old scene (delete the old useless component first) and you will have your scene with the new component and the old parameters. This is how it should works, now there are minor bugs and some parameters could be overwritten in the process but it will be fixed very soon. Also we will provide a new plugin that when you import a single component into MXstudio ( like in this example) it will be placed in the right position and with the right orientation. So for example if you import a mxs with a very complex car and then you just want to change the model of a single wheel, go back to SW, remodel the wheel, export it as a single mxs and import it in Studio into the scene of the car, the rest of the scene wont be affected. If someone does not understand it, please post here any doubts. Btw, We are glad to hear your comments, your ideas are essential for us.

Juan

[Eric Lagman]

Agree with all above points.

One other thing that is missing is the ability to customize viewport navagation. Keep in mind everyone is coming from another 3d app that they use quite a bit to model (in my case I use sw on a daily basis for hours). It would be nice to be able to set mw studio navagation settings to ones I use in SW. I use middle mouse click hold to rotate view, scroll to zoom and ctrl middle mouse hold to pan. If you have ever jumped between using a couple different 3d software you will know what I mean. You find yourself using the buttons you used in one program on accident and swearing a lot. This is what I like about Rhino, and Cinema 4d the other apps I use with solidworks. You can change your navagation buttons to what you like. I like to keep them the same accross 3d apps. Hope this makes sense. Im not saying make everything customizable just major things like quick key settings, and navagation. Keep up the good work I am confident this will be a great product if we can all pitch in to make this as user friendly as possible.

[John Layne]

I use a Spacemouse and a mouse with SolidWorks, I suppose I need to talk to www.3dconnexion.com to get them to write a plug-in for Maxwell.

[JesperW]

I use a Spacemouse and a mouse with SolidWorks, I suppose I need to talk to www.3dconnexion.com to get them to write a plug-in for Maxwell.

I already put this in the "Wish"-list forum, don't know how much work it is, but I hoped it could happend when the real render work calms down. Getting 3DConnexion to do it seems like a smart move, if they're into that sort of things!

[JesperW]

The plugin creates materials per objects which have not any other material applyed. If you create a material and you apply it to all the objects maxwell will create only two mateerias (this one you have created and an auxiliar one necessary for internal purposes)
Btw it can be improved and in fact we will do it soon to make your workflow easier.

Juan, I understood that process without problem. That's why I made the point about not using the SWX material assignment much, because Studio's is much more useful. So in this scenario there will be no Maxwell materials assigned in SWX, only SWX color/shininess/transparency etc.

To give my suggestion a little more detail:

Code: Select all

for each (all SWX bodies) {
  if( MR material assigned ) use this material.
  else {
    for each (all MR materials created so far) {
      if( already created material has same parameters as current body)
        use already created material;
    }
    if( already created material was not found ) create new MR material and use it;
  }
}

This approach has two big benefits:

- I get fewer default_xxxxx materials to sort through and delete.

- A new MR user with a lot of SWX models can go into Studio, turn all the grey thingies to steel, the white to plastic and the yellow to brass, and have a fully material assigned model in a few minutes, instead of having to go through each and every body and assign new materials. I guarantee you this will make for happier new users!

And hiding the internal material is certainly a good thing!

Cheers,
/j

[JesperW]

Sorry for lots of posts, trying be constructive !

Also we will provide a new plugin that when you import a single component into MXstudio ( like in this example) it will be placed in the right position and with the right orientation.

This is a good thing. Especially if extended so I can point to a body/part/assembly in my large SWX model and have that inserted right away in a specified .mxs. Even better would be if the SWX ID of the objects were stored in the .mxs and the plugin checks if there are old objects in the .mxs with the same SWX ID, and delete those.

This solves the scenario of updating one part in a complex assembly.

Unfortunatly there is also another scenario. Take my ship as an example. I have two simple splines in two sketches that define the profiles of the hull. They are controlled by 6 or 7 dimensions. If I change one of these dimensions, my entire model will update. The hull changes shape, all internal structural elements follows the new shape, all interior elements are moved in accordance etc. (This process takes about 30 minutes on my dual opteron workstation ) So now I have a new version of my assembly where more than 50% of the parts are updated. The structure is exactly the same, all the parts have exactly the same IDs. And of course I would like to be able to render the new version without having to reassign materials, reposition texture mapping etc.

When I try to think about how to solve this, I think about how it's done now. You create a separate file for storing the assigned materials, right? Would it be possible for Studio (or the plugin or some other program or whatever) to "back annotate" the materials assigned in Studio to this file, so when I look at assignments in the plugin, I can now see the materials I created and assigned in Studio?

This also requires that the SWX object id is carried over to Studio, but if that's done it should be easy to extract the back-annotation info, right? This approach would actually improve both the "Change one part" and "Change entire model" scenarios.

Juan, I really feel sorry for you putting more problems to consider in your head, but I know one thing for shure: It's better to think about these issues early than later when you already gone to far down some path...

/j

[jjs]

JesperW

A good thread - like you I have been giving some thought to how to get the best 'workflow' for SW and Maxwell.

As you say with your example of the boat that changes size because it is driven by some dimension - The revised file is different in size and shape to the ooriginal , so if I understand Juan correctly , the proposed ability of maxwell to import a new component into an existing mxs file will be of no use in this case.

This is the achilles heal of the seperate Maxwell Studio concept . from reading other posts I understand why they have created the 'studio' because it can handle some very complex materials which cannot be created in all the 3d applications.

I don't think Maxwell appreciate that SW users are rendering designs that are in constant development, while the 3d visualisers are tending to render designs that have been signed off for rendering. If a change occurs to the design then they charge extra. For SW users, the render is not at the end but is a part of the design process and change is the one thing that will happen constantly. And we have not even begun to talk about configuartions that we all use in SW - what happens to these MXS files - each one is different and we have to apply the fancy materials all over agian in 'Studio'. I sometimes have 6 or 7 different concepts as configs.

Our problem is that SW has a crap texture handler and we need to use 'studio' ( when it gets its texture working) to get any results. We and maxwell are in the hands of SW.


If SW texture improved I personaly would probably stay in SW plugin for most renders. It would be great if the plugin could import maxwell materials (mxm files i think) that we could create in 'Studio'.

If this is not possible then we have to use the 'studio' because of its better materials and textures - then could it be possible for the second saved MXS file to insert itself into the original MXS file and component names/surface names/face names are compared and a check list dialogue appears asking whether the new MXS material should be used or the old MXS material. Perhaps when creating a component or face or surface in SW we can RHMB and 'tag' it as a MX component , surface or face and this tag is in the mxs file - so that it is quickly picked out in 'Studio' and Studio knows that it needs to appear in this dialogue box when the new MXS file is over laid on top off the old MXS file. Untagged faces and surfaces are ignored and untagged components are rendered in default grey diffuse.

Anyway - I can't seem to get the RC2 studio to give good rendering - like SW they are B&W -

I'll just wait till the next release and see what is done.

TTFN

Jonathan

[juan]

Hi Jesper and Jonathan,
This post is very interesting.

First of all I am glad to hear your comments, they are so useful for us and we will try to do our best to put is inside maxwell.
Jesper, we will reduce the number of materials in the list as soon as possible, in a few days, just when the main areas of the core are finished.
Btw the plugin for Sw has more than 20K lines of code, it will be really great for me reduce it to 10 lines, it would symplify my life a lot.. :D

I will think in ways to store the material assignment so if there are a change in the structure as the one you have shown, you avoid reassing the materials. I understand this is essential for your work. Also very soon you will have more tool in MX studio to assign and replace materials to allow you a very quick work.

Jonathan, I understand you too. SW users need to rendering constantly. We will try you can do all the work inside the plugin. Of course in the case of SW it will be necessary a more powerful texturing system, but anyway our intention is that you can bypass MXstudio if you do not need it. For example soon you will can select an object into SW and apply a mxm to it. Not only that, but also we have plans to allow you to launch the material editor separate from the MX studio. So you could work in SW, apply mxm'x to entities, if you need to edit a mxm open just the material editor, not all Studio, hit render, or open Studio..
The idea is that we want to let you choose the best workflow for each case, we do not want to force you to work in one way. If SW continues adding features to its sdk we will add it to the plugin. SW team is giving a strong support and the integration will be better in next updates.

Cheers,

Juan

[jjs]

Hi Jesper and Jonathan,
This post is very interesting.

First of all I am glad to hear your comments, they are so useful for us and we will try to do our best to put is inside maxwell.
Jesper, we will reduce the number of materials in the list as soon as possible, in a few days, just when the main areas of the core are finished.
Btw the plugin for Sw has more than 20K lines of code, it will be really great for me reduce it to 10 lines, it would symplify my life a lot.. :D

I will think in ways to store the material assignment so if there are a change in the structure as the one you have shown, you avoid reassing the materials. I understand this is essential for your work. Also very soon you will have more tool in MX studio to assign and replace materials to allow you a very quick work.

Jonathan, I understand you too. SW users need to rendering constantly. We will try you can do all the work inside the plugin. Of course in the case of SW it will be necessary a more powerful texturing system, but anyway our intention is that you can bypass MXstudio if you do not need it. For example soon you will can select an object into SW and apply a mxm to it. Not only that, but also we have plans to allow you to launch the material editor separate from the MX studio. So you could work in SW, apply mxm'x to entities, if you need to edit a mxm open just the material editor, not all Studio, hit render, or open Studio..
The idea is that we want to let you choose the best workflow for each case, we do not want to force you to work in one way. If SW continues adding features to its sdk we will add it to the plugin. SW team is giving a strong support and the integration will be better in next updates.

Cheers,

Juan

For example soon you will can select an object into SW and apply a mxm to it. Not only that, but also we have plans to allow you to launch the material editor separate from the MX studio. So you could work in SW, apply mxm'x to entities, if you need to edit a mxm open just the material editor, not all Studio, hit render, or open Studio..

Cool. will this include these complex ior materials - not that I know much about them - waiting Tom's documentation

Now all that has to really improve in the SW is the way they handle textures and decals. Is there any thing I have forgotten that the Studio can do that the SW plugin cannot - I have just looked over the 'studio' UI and can't see anything other than the Dual Monitor layout and the custom layouts you can have - I wish SW could do the same.





Juan - don't anwser this email during coding time - wait till 5 pm and then answer in the night shift

I bet you are looking forward to Xmas and new year - I'll be back in Scotland - just like in August

TTFN


Jonathan

[JesperW]

Btw the plugin for Sw has more than 20K lines of code, it will be really great for me reduce it to 10 lines, it would symplify my life a lot..

Simple! Just delete every other newline!




(Sorry... Couldn't resist... )

[JesperW]

Is there any thing I have forgotten that the Studio can do that the SW plugin cannot - I have just looked over the 'studio' UI and can't see anything other than the Dual Monitor layout and the custom layouts you can have - I wish SW could do the same.

The really important thing I guess is being able to position textures properly (which is not available at the moment since texture support is still not released in Studio). Plus the Über-Fast Global Illumination Preview. On my full model (1.5 M poly) I get the first update, which is noisy but totally useful when you're tweaking material parameters, in about a minute. Try it, you'll like it

Of course, a Right Mouse-button menu with "Assign Maxwell Material" and "Edit Maxwell Material" in SWX, plus a preview and a render button would be absolutly awesome too. I just don't want to have to wait for SWX 2007 which is almost a year away... All my input above assumes things can be done without waiting for SWX releases.