[Josephus Holt]

So I've spent some time looking/studying the Maxwell manual, Mike Verta's material basics video, as well as Tom's tutorial on how to "Maxwelize" the Arroway maps. I'm finding that there seem to be different ways "to skin the cat ", as they say.

Is the specular map something other than Reflectance 90? I see that in Tom's tutorial he does not place ANY map (i.e. diffuse with 10% (or so) brightness increase?) in the R90 slot, this is confusing to me.

I'm also looking at the Arroway MXM's that NL created that came with Maxwell, in particular "bricks-20". This is different again, but it seems they all where assembled in this fashion
It's made up as follows:

Base layer: diffuse map in BOTH Refl 0 and Refl 90 slots of the BSDF, both SAME brightness (??). Nd is set o 3, high roughness.
The only thing I don't understand is why Refl 90 would not be slightly brighter per Tom's tutorial.

Specular layer: no maps in either Refl 0 or Refl 90 slots of the BSDF, both are 0,0,0. Nd is set slightly lower to 1.5, Force Fresnel is enabled. Roughness 50%. The layer has a very dark opacity map set in Additive mode.
So how do I read this? That the whites in the opacity map are adding the blacks (0,0,0) of the BSDF Refl 0 and Relf 90 to the base layer? This is really confusing to me and if anyone can shed some (direct ) light on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Joe

[kami]

you're approach is quite different from what I do with the arroway textures.

maybe you could try it this way:
clone the first bsdf (btw: I don't notice much of a difference if the Ref-90 is slightly brighter)
on the second bsdf you put the specular map as roughness map (and leave the setting at 100). Now you can adjust the roughness map with brightness/contrast the way you want it (black is highly reflecting). Sometimes you need to invert the specularity map. (Remember that the brightness/contrast display in rhino does not work right on inverted textures).
Now you can adjust the reflection strenght by changing the layer weights. I don't use Additive Mode on this.

hope this helped a little. I don't know if it's the right way to go, but I found it quite easy to control like this.

[Josephus Holt]

you're approach is quite different from what I do with the arroway textures.

Kami, thank you for the reply, but it's not my approach, it's Next Limit's...you'll find it in the Maxwell Materials database under MXM>Arroway>bricks-20. I'll look more carefully at your response shortly (I'm glad you mentioned about the brightness adjustement not working on inverted maps in the Rhino plugin)may have some questions for you later), but I think that I figured out why NL did the Arroway MXM library this way.

To answer my own questions:
1. The specular map IS different from Refl 90.
2. The reason why no brightness difference from Refl 0 to Refl 90 is the roughness, almost Lambertian surface. I think you found out the same.
3. By placing the specular map in an Additive Specular layer, it has no effect on the Refl 0 and Refl 90 because of the 0,0,0 settings, it has also no further effect on the roughness/glossiness slot (if in effect just duplicates the inverted specular map), but it does have an effect on the bump map which would here raise (bump) up only those areas that are white in the specular map in the layer opacity map slot.

Did I get those right? Joe

[tom]

Josephus, you've answered them correctly.

[Josephus Holt]

Josephus, you've answered them correctly.

Thanks Tom....that must mean that I'm starting to see the light

[zdeno]

Thanks Tom....that must mean that I'm starting to see the light

all about 1.7.1 (remember BBloo?) not familiar with 2.0 yet

Dear Josephus!

You are not even close Hard to say it, but mxm maxwell material system is so hard to learn as it is powerfull.
This material system is so sofisticated apparently even it's inventors doesn,t understood it in 100%. or sadlly they don't know how to share their knowledge.

Just look at this arroway tile 48 from mentioned tutorial, and with all tips and tricks from manual. This material s..k.. hemm, is not so good.

First: Lambert layer kills all shading and beautifull power of maxwell.
Second: This "specular" layer DIMS all surface with on direct reflection of light. Always when you do this in NORMAL MODE it appears. So you get nothing like diffuse texture look You are tring to get. Because , if you want nice 2-3 ND fresnell it is too dark and it is taken to equation, so your base colors are cut down about 20% (in this example). It is the worst thing NL teaching us. It is why this all forum is filled with "scanline look" renders flat and sad , without colors and life.
Specular have to be ADD but wiselly with respect to preseve energy law.
Third: diffuse texture is much to bright and desaturated, because this is photography of glossy tiles , so we have specular touch in it. Has to be saturated and dim a bit.

Maxwell is the most powerfull engine, but someone in here just forget that MATERIALS IS EVERYTHING in CG. light power doesn,t matter,you can always move slider. it relationship between materials are crucial. But there is only MVerta trying to teach us something usefull.

look


and with simball - same material, in this one it is apparently too bright nad washed out, so must be tweeked



and from another side - almost every materials have to be done with at least 2 layers so why this is not default? in interior rendering only glass and aluminium is on BSDF but all rest is 2 or 3 layers, so why have to click and click all day to add layer?

but I have one good news . when You get it in maxwell , making materials in vray will be piece of cake.

and last one to Joshephus , try first to make simple carpaint with metal look and strong fresnel reflection, this is the best exercise.

[Josephus Holt]

@zdeno: thank you very much for the time/effort you put into your response....every little bit of information helps me to understand Maxwell materials better. You'll be glad to know that the Maxwell 2.0 Arroway materials were all updated and match your settings almost exactly

My posting here was to find out why NL did what they did with these Arroway textures, and I feel like I've got that picture pretty good. Once I really understand (without having to consciously think about it) how these things work than I can get more creative with the settings to achieve the results I might be looking for. The differences between what makes one "better" than another is in reality quite slight and perhaps only perceived by those who have a trained eye for these things.

thanks again for the reply.

[zdeno]

so I see I have to give maxwell 2.0 a chance

another reson to try is to check if I will find materials that is impossible to do with 1.7.1 . Of course with this all stacked layer thing maybe this is easier, but is it HAVE TO HAVE thing.

so I am waitng patitently for 1license + 3 free rendernodes christmas promotion

[tom]

Actually, the arroway tutorial on Think! site is very old and then in the past, additive mode was not available. Also those contrasty previews are due to changes/fixes in gamma/tonemapping and other factors etc. We already give a brandnew pack of Arroway mxm with 2.0 so, you should use the new materials instead of trying to build materials by following a 1.x tutorial. If you're really after doing that, I suggest the new "Textured" wizard.

Hard to say it, but mxm maxwell material system is so hard to learn as it is powerfull.

This is not true at all. It is not harder than learning any other material system.

This material system is so sofisticated apparently even it's inventors doesn,t understood it in 100%. or sadlly they don't know how to share their knowledge.

...and this could be one of the poorest pitfall you could be in while your body is full of lightsaber holes bleeding.

First: Lambert layer kills all shading and beautifull power of maxwell.

In tutorial it has always been mentioned Lambertian is not the only choice but, we'd like to keep the base as Lambertian for a good reason. The roughness model was subject to change/be improved along versions so we had to avoid remaking these materials and tutorials for every single version for sake of avoiding more confusion. So, it was not a foolish decision as you perceive.

Second: This "specular" layer DIMS all surface with on direct reflection of light. Always when you do this in NORMAL MODE it appears. So you get nothing like diffuse texture look You are tring to get. Because , if you want nice 2-3 ND fresnell it is too dark and it is taken to equation, so your base colors are cut down about 20% (in this example). It is the worst thing NL teaching us. It is why this all forum is filled with "scanline look" renders flat and sad , without colors and life.
Specular have to be ADD but wiselly with respect to preseve energy law.

As, I've said, there was no additive mode when this tutorial appeared, sorry.

Third: diffuse texture is much to bright and desaturated, because this is photography of glossy tiles , so we have specular touch in it. Has to be saturated and dim a bit.

So, you think? Although, this is something to do with Arroway, not Maxwell...

and from another side - almost every materials have to be done with at least 2 layers so why this is not default? in interior rendering only glass and aluminium is on BSDF but all rest is 2 or 3 layers, so why have to click and click all day to add layer?

Material system should be as primitive as possible. Wizards and systems are separate things. Initially forcing user to use 2 or 3 BSDF etc are wizard-like approaches.

[zdeno]

Actually, the arroway tutorial on Think! site is very old and then in the past, additive mode was not available. Also those contrasty previews are due to changes/fixes in gamma/tonemapping and other factors etc. We already give a brandnew pack of Arroway mxm with 2.0 so, you should use the new materials instead of trying to build materials by following a 1.x tutorial. If you're really after doing that, I suggest the new "Textured" wizard.

BINGO! - so why in the name of CG God WHY ? this old rusty tutorial is on THINK site? I know this tips are old and bad. Tom knows. Bubbaloo knows, but fresh user don't so ??? this is all about ....

This material system is so sofisticated apparently even it's inventors doesn,t understood it in 100%. or sadlly they don't know how to share their knowledge.

I really dont believe , inventors don't know it's kid. It is all small attention to teach user how do good materials. Newbie is alone with few sentances from manual, rusty tutorials from think site. If don,t found MVerta tutorials there is no salvation for him. Will be waitng all nights to see this wood panel and white plaster is nothink like he want to get.

This is not true at all. It is not harder than learning any other material system.

hahaha Tom ! just don't be so cruel just see through mxm resources on this free stuff portal .. or "lambert everywhere renders on forum"
for example there is at least 4 factors to control strenght of colors of material - refl 0 refl 90 , Nd , Roughness, and even weight blending of layers matters.

...and this could be one of the poorest pitfall you could be in while your body is full of lightsaber holes bleeding.

when One get wound from lightsabre there is no blood , because extremely heat just stops drain of blood inside the body. It is clear You never used Your lightsabres in proper way. Must be just used FORCE thing.

In tutorial it has always been mentioned Lambertian is not the only choice but, we'd like to keep the base as Lambertian for a good reason. The roughness model was subject to change/be improved along versions so we had to avoid remaking these materials and tutorials for every single version for sake of avoiding more confusion. So, it was not a foolish decision as you perceive.
As, I've said, there was no additive mode when this tutorial appeared, sorry.

just look up for first sentences

So, you think? Although, this is something to do with Arroway, not Maxwell...

So if NL knows textured are "not so good balanced" so why didn't tweeked it a bit ? (license politics od arroway?)

Material system should be as primitive as possible. Wizards and systems are separate things. Initially forcing user to use 2 or 3 BSDF etc are wizard-like approaches.

Yes You have right.

[tom]

BINGO! - so why in the name of CG God WHY ? this old rusty tutorial is on THINK site? I know this tips are old and bad. Tom knows. Bubbaloo knows, but fresh user don't so ??? this is all about ....

We're marking tutorials as 1.x and 2.x. We just don't like to remove them until more users switch to 2.x and we have new replacing tutorials.

I really dont believe , inventors don't know it's kid. It is all small attention to teach user how do good materials. Newbie is alone with few sentances from manual, rusty tutorials from think site. If don,t found MVerta tutorials there is no salvation for him. Will be waitng all nights to see this wood panel and white plaster is nothink like he want to get.

So you found Mike's tutorial and that's good. Do you simply want us to remove the rest of the obsolete 1.x tutorials and that's all?

This is not true at all. It is not harder than learning any other material system.

hahaha Tom ! just don't be so cruel just see through mxm resources on this free stuff portal .. or "lambert everywhere renders on forum" for example there is at least 4 factors to control strenght of colors of material - refl 0 refl 90 , Nd , Roughness, and even weight blending of layers matters.

You can make things more simple until they lose their meanings. Reflectance, Nd and Roughness are the very basics of CG materials over years. What do you expect? "Render me an apple right away!" will not happen.

...and this could be one of the poorest pitfall you could be in while your body is full of lightsaber holes bleeding.

when One get wound from lightsabre there is no blood , because extremely heat just stops drain of blood inside the body. It is clear You never used Your lightsabres in proper way. Must be just used FORCE thing.

No, it's because I've used MXI emission.

So, you think? Although, this is something to do with Arroway, not Maxwell...

So if NL knows textured are "not so good balanced" so why didn't tweeked it a bit ? (license politics od arroway?)

I/We did not say that. I said it's your subjective idea and we're not forbidding any user tweaking them.

[zdeno]

So you found Mike's tutorial and that's good. Do you simply want us to remove the rest of the obsolete 1.x tutorials and that's all?

Isn't it obvious ? removing all old tutorials It is a first thing to do. Those only get new users to wrong path.

You can make things more simple until they lose their meanings. Reflectance, Nd and Roughness are the very basics of CG materials over years. What do you expect? "Render me an apple right away!" will not happen.

this is misunderstanding. I don't want that.
I want more tutorials and knowledge of material system, not this 3 pages in manual or digging 3 day in forum pages to find a little tip about Nd. I think (as I said earlier) materials are 90% power of CG graphic so Chapter about doing real looking material should be as big as all manual today.

No, it's because I've used MXI emission.

Clever as usuall my Master <bow>

I/We did not say that. I said it's your subjective idea and we're not forbidding any user tweaking them.

misunderstanding again.
I am just curious why NL didn,t tweek this textures BEFORE making tutorial and making arroway material , and sharing it with people.

[kami]

I have to chime in, that I'd also appreciate a few additional tutorials on materials. Something where you can reread all that stuff you can't ever remember
maybe theme related? metals, wood witch lacquer, ags, tweaking normal map/bump, displacement, etc.
I have to admit, that I haven't watched/read all of them, but they seem not enough for what maxwell is capable of.
The same could be said about the physical sky system. I'm sure it is very strong, but also very hard to understand which value creates what kind of effect.

[Maximus3D]

Hm, interesting. You guys want more mxm tutorials.. i have to look into that.

One thing i wanna say is that if you wanna learn the materialsystem in Maxwell, then don't think too much! grab a couple of materials similar to what you wanna recreate from the MXM Gallery, pick them apart, see how they were built and learn from them. That's the quick road to success.
And.. start simple, then refine and keep adding details to your material. It's not as tricky as it looks!

/ Max

[Josephus Holt]

Hm, interesting. You guys want more mxm tutorials.. i have to look into that.

One thing i wanna say is that if you wanna learn the materialsystem in Maxwell, then don't think too much! grab a couple of materials similar to what you wanna recreate from the MXM Gallery, pick them apart, see how they were built and learn from them. That's the quick road to success.
And.. start simple, then refine and keep adding details to your material. It's not as tricky as it looks!

/ Max

Max, once you get a handle on the concepts that methodology indeed works very well. If someone doesn't quite get a handle on the concepts, then what they're seeing is rather meaningless, even if it's not that complicated. If the tutorials can explain WHY this or that, then it helps us to understand the process better and we understand what we're looking at when we examine the various materials in the MXM gallery.