[Micha]

... NL should then proceed to give us shaders based on those measurements, not some old implementation. ...

This is it, what I want to say with all my images. I don't like to see that NL use my diffuse metal fake method. I try to show here, what a rendered metal can be. Many people have done research on this subject and find different illumination models, but at the moment we only have a very poor one implemented. It is not a physical correct model, it is only ideal reflection. The aluminium material is the best example.

I don't see the difference between new chrom and new plastic chrom. It are mirrors only. But if it is used, than you see the difference.

[tom]

Well, what you say is not wrong Micha and what I do with plastics shader is not the exact thing we need. Like Mihai said, Maxwell is after achieving these surfaces with correct approaches. The characteristic diffuse glow over metals is mainly the result of micro surface imperfectness and oxidaton which you cannot model. Here's a simple test, go to bathroom and see the faucet is mirror like metal (if it's new enough) and now breath upon the faucet and see what happens. There will be a thick vapor layer over it, this is still not what you meant because it's very exageratted and glossy. After a few seconds with evaporation, it will become clearer and will start to show the effect you need until the vapor has totally gone. Or rub it hardly with a cloth and see it will gain that diffuse glow permanently. So, thank you very much for bringing these ideas here. I don't mean the current metal material is enough for all but the correct solution is not simply adding a diffuse color to it.

[Mihai]

....I hope we get to see the correct solution very soon!

still no new images....

[Micha]

Well, what you say is not wrong Micha and what I do with plastics shader is not the exact thing we need. Like Mihai said, Maxwell is after achieving these surfaces with correct approaches. The characteristic diffuse glow over metals is mainly the result of micro surface imperfectness and oxidaton which you cannot model. Here's a simple test, go to bathroom and see the faucet is mirror like metal (if it's new enough) and now breath upon the faucet and see what happens. There will be a thick vapor layer over it, this is still not what you meant because it's very exageratted and glossy. After a few seconds with evaporation, it will become clearer and will start to show the effect you need until the vapor has totally gone. Or rub it hardly with a cloth and see it will gain that diffuse glow permanently. So, thank you very much for bringing these ideas here. I don't mean the current metal material is enough for all but the correct solution is not simply adding a diffuse color to it.

Tom, you understand me not. You mix diffuse and "metal diffuse". I dosn't mean dust, fingerprints or vapor layer. This is different effect without metal characteristics. This dust effects can be simulated by a specular map. But micro scratches and metal oxid show a typical diffuse metal effect with a special metalic characteristic. I have approx. archived it with my biased rendering.
Look at the brass sphere on the house railing photo. If you like, I can clean it more, but if I not polish it with special paste, it will show us a blury metalic diffuse effect allways. This effect is not seldom, not a special effect for freaks. It is a standard effect of older metal.
At the moment Maxwell provide only ideal, new, extrem unused metal.

[tom]

You mix diffuse and "metal diffuse".

Diffuse and metal diffuse....hmmm..uhmmm... I think I should learn more...

[giacob]

for instance in mental ray we have, for this, a surface shader in the metal lume

[Micha]

You mix diffuse and "metal diffuse".

Diffuse and metal diffuse....hmmm..uhmmm... I think I should learn more...

... or simple looking around you. I assume Istanbul is full of nice metal effects.

[Thomas An.]

This is a material multilayering issue.

All metals have a thin coating on their surface.
Even if you polish the metal, then you have a thin film of polish on the surface (at the micron level)

[tom]

Thank you Thomas!!! You can't imagine sometimes how I need you since me and Mihai dubbed as fanboys here.

[Micha]

Is this effect not a must for a physic based render engine? Dosn't matter which name it have. So much metal materials have it. I assume the most metals.

And, is plastic material not a multilayer material too?

[tom]

Yes Micha, even I suggested it, plastic is not a good solution for this and you'll be able to do it with multi layers.

[Micha]

So I can only hope, NL give us a "diffuse metal" function based on a physic model, so we can build the standard metal shader self. I'm tired to say, it is a basic material function.

I'm very curious on the material editor.

[Thomas An.]

Is this effect not a must for a physic based render engine? Dosn't matter which name it have. So much metal materials have it. I assume the most metals.

And, is plastic material not a multilayer material too?

Yes, it is necessary and we know that the materials will become more complex in the 1.0 Maxwell release.

Given this information, why don't you wait until the 1.0 release and then complain afterwards if need be ? In other words, this topic shouldn't even exist at this time.

[tom]

I'm tired to say, it is a basic material function.

This was valid for the previous generation

[Olivier Cugniet]

I think NL team is very good in teasing