[w i l l]

Nothing is wrong with that picture if you don't see anything wrong with that picture. There is way too much grey area in all of this to argue any particular point... the workings of society are too complex to draw up an accurate system. If it's a system that shows a salary that you require to stay alive then thats understandable, but I think that maybe its difficult to stick to this system for your life's salary as life has so many variables.

[Frances]

Nothing is wrong with that picture if you don't see anything wrong with that picture. There is way too much grey area in all of this to argue any particular point... the workings of society are too complex to draw up an accurate system. If it's a system that shows a salary that you require to stay alive then thats understandable, but I think that maybe its difficult to stick to this system for your life's salary as life has so many variables.

I'm saying that salary is not based on skillset. However, since education is a vocation, it's not really fair for me to make the analogy. Why are people teachers? Why are people pediatric oncology nurses?

Salary is based on what people are willing to pay in combination with what people are willing to accept. People may not realize it, but they will attract to themselves exactly what they expect and anticipate. Good or bad. If you expect clients to be assholes, guess what? If you don't expect people to pay much for your services, then guess what? I'm speaking of "you" generally, not personally.

[ivox3]

Maybe Will, ... but even within the many variables of life, ..there's a general 'evening out' or basic pattern that develops. The initial formula is based on a an individual who posesses average/above average CG skills, ..within 5 years of experience and already has begun building a client base , but hasn't established consistancy concerning invoicing.

The part you think might have a contradiction in it actually contains the original idea. Remember, ...there was a variable for multiplying what you need times the what the market will take.

Example, .. There's a neural surgeon, ...he's in the top 3 in the world at what he does. He performs brain surgery. What's he worth? How does he figure what to charge? If he used my forumula to determine that amount, ..well, ..the part of living costs becomes quite negligible because his ability to raise his multiplication factor is so great. He could easily charge $80,000.00/hour or more for his knowledge. He's nearly impossible to replace, ..what if the other 2 guys are busy? You see my point. I'm just saying that people who are peforming CG work should cover their costs and then some, ...if their skillset warrants it, ..then that price can go up accordingly. So, ..back to the contradiction, ...if your the only game in town for high end CG particle simulations, ... your not easily replaced and your price reflects that. That is all.

Fran: ..nice example, ... I remember one. ...

[w i l l]

Salary is based on what people are willing to pay in combination with what people are willing to accept.

That's the point. If I'm charging £20 per hour and Porsche asked me to do a job for them (which they probably wouldn't but theoretically it could happen) would I then charge £20 per hour, because I have a system to stick to? I know that a market trader from Peckham wouldn't. Seymour Powell (or other now big name designers) may have the same cost of living in 2006 as 1986 but do they still charge the same rates? etc etc.

[ivox3]

Will, ....If someone's going to pay you an exceptional rate without question, ...then you might or might not be a fool to lower the amount. ...but, ..if you take the project at that price and when it's finished and you say, .."my new rate is what I got paid on the last project !" ... you'd also be a fool. It was an anomaly and would have to be considered as such. The reality is that you'd default back to the system rate and be happy you had a 'gravy' job.

With this kind of thing you have be careful with this, ..it's not the no brainer it might seem. Along the way I mentioned consistancy and relationships. It's a small world, ...what if the gravy job finds out that after you performed their work, ..they find out you charged another company/individual much much less for similar work? You begin the roller coaster ride of inconsistancy and run the risk of being labeled an oppurtunist. Even though this type of information is usually confidential, ...things get out, ...people know people within the industry. If you keep everything air tight and above board, ... the reputation remains intact. No problems. Again, ..I say, ...what's that worth?

[w i l l]

Still, ...you have to be careful with this. Along the way I mentioned consistancy and relationships. It's a small world, ...what if the gravy job finds out that after you performed their work, ..they find out you charged another company/individual much much less for similar work? You begin the roller coaster ride of inconsistancy and run the risk of being labeled an oppurtunist. Even though this type of information is usually confidential, ...things get out, ...people know people within the industry. If you keep everything air tight and above board, ... the reputation remains intact. No problems. Again, ..I say, ...what's that worth?

Yes I shall have to watch out for this.

[ivox3]

Fair enough. ...

[w i l l]

Not that I am a crook or anything... i've just been doing work for loooooooow prices to start out. And yes, I shall now be sticking to a sensible minimum rate.

[ivox3]

Determine what you need, ..then what you want, ...then diligently defend that price. Mentally/emotionally you'll be more assertive because you'll have definitive reasons for having that price instead of just some manufactured figure that means nothing to you. In your mind, ..you know that if you settle for less, ...you'll be hurting yourself in one way or another. Clients will detect your 'firmness/confidance' and usually respond to it positively. Not always, ..but usually.

...good luck.

[Mihai]

My son's kindergarten teacher is one of the best I've ever met. She works as a night manager at Hardee's too. What's wrong with that picture?

It's a very sad picture on how we value things in our society. If it's not immediately tangible, people don't see the value. Doesn't matter that the first years in the life of their kids are crucial....I'd like to see them spend one week with 20 kids trying to keep them occupied, maybe then they would be willing to respect teachers more.

[dutch_designer]

I'd like to bump this thread, I'm in the midst of acquiring a freelance gig and this topic helped me get aware of some of the things to look out for.. can't we sticky this somewhere?

[Eric Lagman]

Will,

One quick point of advice is maybe try having a new client rate of x. Basically you let them know that you are giving them a discounted rate as kind of an introductory offer. Let them know that if they like your work and what you do your standard rate is x next time they come back. This is usually the problem getting new clients is they are not sure you will be worth it, and when you don't have a lot of experience like you are saying this may be the only way to land your first job with them. You may not need to thow this out there right away though. Only try it when they waver on making a decision, or reject your bid. Just a thought. Sorry if this was mentioned earlier. Not many people are going to get $50-$60 an hour without any real professional experience. This is why most people dont go right out of school and try to freelance. It is usually something that happens after a good amount of experience is gained. Not that it cant be done, but in the field you are in which is ID this is how it works most of the time.

[Eric Lagman]

My son's kindergarten teacher is one of the best I've ever met. She works as a night manager at Hardee's too. What's wrong with that picture?

It's a very sad picture on how we value things in our society. If it's not immediately tangible, people don't see the value. Doesn't matter that the first years in the life of their kids are crucial....I'd like to see them spend one week with 20 kids trying to keep them occupied, maybe then they would be willing to respect teachers more.

Yeah that always makes me ill seeing that. Especially when you look at what atheletes and movie starts get paid in the US. They wouldnt be getting paid that much if people did not demand it. Our priorietes are definately not in the right place. Its really sad.

[w i l l]

Yeah cheers, that's what i'm sort of doing. Have got too much work now. I'm not just out of school though.