[Thomas An.]

In some cases it can be, but in many cases it isn't. You have to choose between making something work more intuitively, or in a more efficient, intelligent manner.

A step by step install guide is more intuitive.

A command line install is less intuitive.

When you have to install 30 applications, would you rather learn a one line command that would then automatically install all applications, or would you rather go through each step by step guide for each application?

The command line is still not (not) intuitive. It is faster and preferable ... but by no stretch it is more intuitive. Calling it intuitive should result in two days in the alligator pit. These two (intuitive/productive) should not be confused. It actually takes great intelligence and elegance for a UI designer to improve the intuitive/productive ratio.

Nope, it is not separate

yeesh, what a barber-ian (makes me loose hair )

For example, how many keyboard buttons/combinations do you need to know in Rhino to pan/zoom/rotate the camera?

Do not go there ... the Rhino view navigation interface was picked up by yours truly within 5min (and I was a virgin back then). I remember clicking a sphere and selecting it (and said "cool") then I remember click-and-drag actually worked on that sphere (and said "cool"), then I remember trying right-click ... and it actually panned the 2-d viewport (and I thought darn , that makes sense this can be so quick to navigate) .... I discovered all view manipulation within 5 min of play (the only thing I did not discover was the camera tilt ... which I was not looking for anyway)... as a matter of fact it felt so natural that the Z axis was always vertical. I have seen some navigation that the whole view gets d-Z.
(and that was while I had other 3d apps running on my desktop ... it kinda made me think, what were they smoking ? ... )

[michaelplogue]

I think a big step bridging the gap between intuitive and intelligent design is being able to customize the interface and workflow.

I know that a lot of folks think that 3dsMax has a very clunky interface. However, since I can customize pretty much everything, I can make it work much more efficiently - for me. What is intuitive for me may not be the same for someone else.

For example, the default action for typing the letter 'M' is to open the Material editor. Since I work in a multi-monitor setup, I leave my material editor open all the time on another screen, so I don't need that command. However, 'M' is intuitive for me to use the Move command - so I re-map that command. For the same reason, I use R to rotate (default is Scale), W for Window (default is Move), E to explode a group (default is Rotate), etc.

So, for me, the 3dsMax default interface is definitively not intuitive. However, its an intelligent design as it allows me to modify it so that it is more intuitive and efficient.

[JDHill]

...that defines "intuitive" once and for all...

...nobody's found that one yet, either.

[Thomas An.]

I think a big step bridging the gap between intuitive and intelligent design is being able to customize the interface and workflow.

I agree about customization. Possibly this is an other reason where Rhino shines; since it has several layers of it.
-Customizable toolbars (fixing toolbars like a jigsaw puzzle along with custom popup toolbars and menus)
-Button Macros
-Key aliases
-Command aliases
-VbScripting
-(and at the deapest level) plugin design via SDK

In the beginning the user is exposed to the first UI layer and then as his demands grow he begins to discover deeper levels.
I remember there was a button on top (with a little hand) that was supposed to pan the view. For some reason I never clicked on it (even though I was a virgin in 3d) ... somehow discovering the right-click-and-pan on the mouse made much more sense,and it was discovered within a few moments (still considered intuitive); it made sense to have immediate panning availability on the mouse itself.

One attempt at defining intuitive might be:
-The 1-3 hour virgin test:
Least reliance on a user manual by a "virgin" user who is not exposed to any similar application (no contamination)
-The task speed test
Low entropy UI (consistent and well categorized) minimizing obstacles to the workflow (it is intuitive to click a button, but if the buttons are randomly put together then it is still useless, because we waste time searching for them)

If a "virgin" user (say a pool of 100 people) can pick up the interface and start performing relatively fast ... then it may be considered intuitive (but there is whole science behind UI ergonomics though).

So, for me, the 3dsMax default interface is definitively not intuitive. However, its an intelligent design

Exactly ! This is the perfect wording.

[Thomas An.]

Jeremy

[Eric Lagman]

the Rhino view navigation interface was picked up by yours truly within 5min (and I was a virgin back then). I remember clicking a sphere and selecting it (and said "cool") then I remember click-and-drag actually worked on that sphere (and said "cool"), then I remember trying right-click ... and it actually panned the 2-d viewport (and I thought darn , that makes sense this can be so quick to navigate) .... I discovered all view manipulation within 5 min of play (the only thing I did not discover was the camera tilt ... which I was not looking for anyway)... as a matter of fact it felt so natural that the Z axis was always vertical. I have seen some navigation that the whole view gets d-Z.
(and that was while I had other 3d apps running on my desktop ... it kinda made me think, what were they smoking ? ... )

Thats funny I had the same experience pretty much when I started using Rhino. The only one you didn't mention was I wanted to expand one of my 4 views to be my main view. Double clicked on it and it worked. Wanted to go back to 4 split view. Double clicked on it and it did. I find myself using the command line in rhino now more than clicking on the icons now that I know the names of the commands. I agree with Michael though. The more options you give the user to customize the commands to his/her liking the better. Thomas have you ever tried using Solidworks. I think you would really like it. It is a great software for the type of work you do. It is also very easy to learn.

I use Photoshop and Illustrator often, and find the user interface and method of creating shapes very akward. Its funny how programs that are unintuitive can get so engrained in an industry. Thank goodness for competetion though. That has the ability to change things. I remember trying to use lightwave a few years ago, and wanted to throw up on my keyboard when I tried to use the UI. I had a similar experience with Maya. No doubt they are powerful programs, but I found Cinema 4d to be a better fit for me between capabilities and user friendliness.

In the end it all comes down to try them all and use what you like really.

[Thomas An.]

Thats funny I had the same experience pretty much when I started using Rhino. The only one you didn't mention was I wanted to expand one of my 4 views to be my main view. Double clicked on it and it worked. Wanted to go back to 4 split view. Double clicked on it and it did. I find myself using the command line in rhino now more than clicking on the icons now that I know the names of the commands.

Yup, the Rhino UI was chuck full of gems like that ... thinking of something and then discovering it where expected. Double-click on the view title to maximize is one of those things as you said (and others where it gives you an eerie feeling that the designer is in your mind ... probing it).

I use Photoshop and Illustrator often, and find the user interface and method of creating shapes very akward. Its funny how programs that are unintuitive can get so engrained in an industry.

Yup, I use Illustrator daily (like bread and butter) for several years now ... and have become very fast with it ... but for some strange, inexplicable reason, I still fire up Rhino to do 2d tracing and other line work. You would think that knowing both UIs equally well it would not matter ... but it does. The subconscious still picks up the UI of least resistance.

[Mihai]

The command line is still not (not) intuitive. It is faster and preferable ... but by no stretch it is more intuitive.

Thomas, I think you are missing my point here. I didn't mean to say the command line is the more intuitive option. I'm trying to say that designing a UI just from the intuitive perspective is a bad thing. You have to leverage the intuitive vs the intelligent. These are two separate concepts that have to be interweaved in the design of the UI.

I'll take a simple example from XSI. Say you wanted to repeat a command. For every menu command, instead of clicking on the menu item, then choosing an option from the command list in that menu set, you can simply MMB on the menu and it executes the command you accessed last.

Now, how to make users aware of this? Should we add a repeat menu icon somewhere in the UI? Takes up space, ads complexity to the UI, with a million buttons everywhere, and more experienced users will want to remove that button immediately, so either the button must have an option to close it, or something added in prefs. If you don't add it in prefs and for some reason you want that button back, what to do? Revert back to "default layout". You see how a small thing can quickly become ridiculously tedious and complicated not just for the programmer but for the UI designer.

So in this case it's simply a feature that is documented in the first get started steps of the application. Might not have been the most intuitive thing to do, but going purely on intuitive here would have been worse.

Do not go there ... the Rhino view navigation interface was picked up by yours truly within 5min (and I was a virgin back then).

I insist The most intuitive for me would be, you press a key and the three mousebuttons are for panning, zooming and rotating. How is is in Rhino again?

If it worked this way, I would have picked it up in 5 seconds, not 5 minutes. As it is, I have already forgotten. Is one of them something like Alt+Shift+ one of the mouse buttons?

[JDHill]

It's all so relative to the user...take my dad for example. He is very comfortable using AutoCAD (v2002). We use it because the CAM software that we use with the CNC was written for it. I have had him try Rhino...and he can't do one single thing. Now...I'm talking about basic 2 1/2D work, not surfacing, etc., here...but the fact is that even at the core, the 2 apps just work completely different...

Acad:

> select command
> select objects
> execute command


Rhino:

> select command
> select objects
> execute command

-or-

> select objects
> select command
> execute command

Just the fact that there are 2 ways to do things in Rhino gets him all tripped up...he can't get used to the idea of having objects selected before he's told Rhino what he wants to do.

Also, notice that this simple object-selection-command-execution example represents a design decision made before any UI has ever been thought of. So...who can say what is right/wrong/simple/confusing...you can never guess what another person will answer.

[Thomas An.]

It's all so relative to the user...take my dad for example. He is very comfortable using AutoCAD (v2002).

Yeah, but this user is already "contaminated" ... meaning, that he is trying to apply the Autocad ways into Rhino.

[JDHill]

That may be...or it may be that at the core of personality...some people naturally think verb > noun, rather than noun > verb. So Rhino just allows both...and in doing so, provides even more confusion for a certain subset of users.

[edit: actually, Rhino allows an Acad-style workflow, so how is it that 'Acad contamination' could be a factor? as I said above, it's the multiplicity of options that provides the confusion, rather than prior expectation.]

[Thomas An.]

Thomas, I think you are missing my point here. I didn't mean to say the command line is the more intuitive option. I'm trying to say that designing a UI just from the intuitive perspective is a bad thing. You have to leverage the intuitive vs the intelligent. These are two separate concepts that have to be interweaved in the design of the UI

These two (intuitive/productive) should not be confused. It actually takes great intelligence and elegance for a UI designer to improve the intuitive/productive ratio.

I'll take a simple example from XSI. Say you wanted to repeat a command. For every menu command, instead of clicking on the menu item, then choosing an option from the command list in that menu set, you can simply MMB on the menu and it executes the command you accessed last.

Pressing the spacebar causes the last command to repeat in Rhino (Same goes for a single click of the right mouse button). Can't miss it.

Taking something seemingly complex and designing an interface of least resistance for it is an art. (least resistance implies least cerebral taxation. In other words an interface that wastes least mental CPU cycles)

Take for example programing languages. They all appear counter intuitive to someone who is not a trained coder. Once someone is exposed to a number of them you would thing they would develop comparable adaptation and it wouldn't matter which one they use. I have some exposure to basic, C, C++, Javascript. C++ seemed quite nice and rational, but once I got a 6 month hiatus out of it ... it was almost completely gone. I forgot the syntax. Incidentally the C++ syntax is completely unintuitive even after spending time to adapt to it. Yet its power is well known, but at the expense of mental CPU cycles. To this day, I would instinctively fire up VB, not VC (I'd rather be a caveman than be re-entangled in that C++ mess of a learning curve).

In the end my point is the opposite of yours. Yes, intuitive and productive are entirely different and the UI designer should try to bridge a good ratio between the two ... but ... I would never (NEVER) try to design something at the expense of ergonomics. Whereas you are coming from the opposite direction (that ergonomics should not come in the way or features)

[Thomas An.]

That may be...or it may be that at the core of personality...some people naturally think verb > noun, rather than noun > verb. So Rhino just allows both...and in doing so, provides even more confusion for a certain subset of users.

Very good point. Well taken. I think you are on to something right there.
When I said I was a 3d virgin when trying Rhino (it was a little lie). I remember having a semester or two of AutoCad 13-14. It left me thinking "that wasn't easy, (or fun) ", and didn't consider a career in computer graphics at all. So in reality AutoCad was my first computer graphics exposure, but it was instinctively rejected/resisted (whereas you would think I should have absorbed it like a sponge; since there was no other frame of reference). Also, I remember thinking "there should be a better way for drawing things on screen".

So as you say it could be a neural pathway thing. If you notice there is a slight similarity in the thinking of Rhino users .... yet Cinema4d have some traits of their own ... same for 3ds users ...

... this is getting too deep

[Thomas An.]

When I said I was a 3d virgin when trying Rhino (it was a little lie).

Sh-t ... nooow it all comes back ...
Even before the Autocad courses I had some exposure with Stata Studio (back in 92-93 on a Mac lab)... yet the only thing I remember is Rhino as my first 3d app ... this is interesting psychological phenomenon

[JDHill]

... this is getting too deep

I don't think it's too deep at all...even the basic subject of the thread is an abstraction...UI is an apparition. You touch a key...and you're doing this >>

Code: Select all

   360: 		glEnable(GL_BLEND);
0000001a B9 E2 0B 00 00   mov         ecx,0BE2h 
0000001f E8 28 1D E2 FF   call        FFE21D4C 
   361: 		glColor4f(1.0f,1.0f,1.0f,1.0f);
00000024 68 00 00 80 3F   push        3F800000h 
00000029 68 00 00 80 3F   push        3F800000h 
0000002e 68 00 00 80 3F   push        3F800000h 
00000033 68 00 00 80 3F   push        3F800000h 
00000038 E8 E7 1F E2 FF   call        FFE22024 
0000003d 90               nop              
   362: 		glCallList(m_sphereDL);
0000003e 8B 8E 08 01 00 00 mov         ecx,dword ptr [esi+00000108h] 
00000044 E8 E7 1F E2 FF   call        FFE22030 
   363: 
   365: 		glDisable(GL_BLEND);
00000049 B9 E2 0B 00 00   mov         ecx,0BE2h 
0000004e E8 E9 1F E2 FF   call        FFE2203C 
   366: 		cityObj = gluNewQuadric();
00000053 8B FE            mov         edi,esi 
00000055 E8 26 1F E2 FF   call        FFE21F80 
0000005a 8B D8            mov         ebx,eax 
0000005c 53               push        ebx  
0000005d 8B CF            mov         ecx,edi 
0000005f BA D0 22 0A 01   mov         edx,10A22D0h 
00000064 E8 FC C9 C6 78   call        78C6CA65 
00000069 90               nop              
   367: 		glPushMatrix();
0000006a E8 D9 1F E2 FF   call        FFE22048 
   368: 
   369: 		glRotatef(-90.0f,0.0f,0.0f,1.0f);				//zisup
0000006f 68 00 00 B4 C2   push        0C2B40000h 
00000074 6A 00            push        0    
00000076 6A 00            push        0    
00000078 68 00 00 80 3F   push        3F800000h 
0000007d E8 6A 1F E2 FF   call        FFE21FEC 
00000082 90               nop

[/size]