Everything related to Maxwell Render and General Stuff that doesn't fit in other categories
User avatar
By Forester
#401290
Maxwell Studio always has had a "smoothing" function for polygons that is located under the "Appearences" tab, when you have an object selected. Actually, this is a function that makes a slight adjustment to the normals of all faces to give everything a smoother, more rounded edge. You can adjust this "Smoothing" setting to give your objects harder or softer edges. This has always been present in Maxwell Studio - but I don't know if it appears in every Maxwell plugin.

I use many, many rendering engines in addition to Maxwell. I am not aware of a true "round corner/beveled edges" function in any rendering engine. To my knowledge (which could be wrong - I've quit using V-Ray), it is only possible to create a true beveled edge in a modelling application. Instead, I believe that most rendering engines, if they have an edge smoothing function, use the same "normals adjustment" technique as does Maxwell Render. This certainly is true for Max and Maya-based rendering engines
User avatar
By Forester
#401291
If I could add a thought...... djin, are you using Sketchup for the most part? If so, you might want to take a look at the Roundcorner plugin for Sketchup, and consider using it on a regular basis for your model-building efforts. That is, create beveled edges on your models before sending them to the rendering engine.

The reason I say this is because we have pretty much moved past the point where we can put the burden of round or chamfered edges on the rendering engine. Two things have changed in the technology. First, we are able to have greater and greater pixel and color resolution in renders that expose "cheats" for what they are. Second, modern PBR materials, such as the Substance Designer materials incorporate both what we think of as the 0-reflection and the 90-reflection (glancing reflection) in the basic sampler. Now, instead of having a diffuse channel/color and a specular channel/color that indicates an edge and/or edge reflection, all this is built-into the base color channel. One practical effect of this change is that a hard edge on an object is going to be quite apparent if any of the modern PBR materials are applied to the object. A beveled/rounded edge is going to reflect light in the directions of the face normals much more clearly. Rounded edges are going to be much more clearly seen as "rounded" and they will be considerably more "photo-realistic" in a render. Maxwell Render, one of the first photo-realistic engines, is very responsive to and sensitive to modern PBR materials. Mostly, we would consider this a good thing as the combination of modern PBR materials with a great PBR rendering engine results in a significant amount of photo-realism.

But, because this is the case, low-resolution models are increasingly going to look like exactly what they are. The technology changes are exposing these in ways that can't be helped. Even in Max, architects are not getting away with hard edges any longer - and Max probably has the most powerful algorightm for messing around with polygon normals to create a seemingly rounded edge. A whole new generation of Max-using architects is supplanting the old one because architectural model-building is requiring greater, more precise model-building skills to keep up with the changes in materials and rendering technologies.

So, I think this is the hand-writing on the wall ........... :oops:
By djiin
#401292
ok, ill give a try on the sketch plug but looks like it works on polygons and since I convert my medals from cad I'm not sure of the result but I'll try.

Anyway what I was talking about was not harden or soften edges but simply a geometry modifier in the material directly that is why I mention "as many other engines does", almost all have that option, octane, Iray, indigo, Thea etc.. very quick and practical, I can of course do it in may cads models but it Is time consuming and makes extra files only for the renders, since that option is on most of engines I was wondering why not in Maxwell, anyway thank you for your answer.
User avatar
By Forester
#401293
dijinn, I'm wondering if you are referring to mesh sub-division functions when you discuss creation of round corners and bevelled edges in "other rendering engines?" ??? I use Indigo often, and sometimes Octane and can't find functions to bevel edges in either of those apps. If you know of functions by these names, please share with me where to look of these in these two renderers. I would appreciate it. But both rendering engines have some mesh sub-division functions to help "smooth" surfaces and edges. ... If it is "mesh sub-division" functions that you have in mind, it would be better to call for further implementation of that kind of technology in Maxwell Render, rather than specific "beveling" processes. Primarily because the former is much easier to implement at the code level. Maxwell already has this capability to some degree, but not to the extent this is implemented in some other rendering engines.

Coming from CAD is always a problem. Precision drawing tools are really important tools. And they are completely different from the tools of 3D model-builders. I doubt thse are ever going to be completely reconcilable.
By Andreas Hopf
#401294
It, once again, depends on the 3D modelling software, on the industry. If you're in product design, you always have a completely "bevelled" model (we call that "fillets") as output by default (unless it's just something cobbled together early in the design process), because in SolidWorks, Fusion 360, Alias or Creo filleting is just a few clicks (if you know what you're doing), and thus you're always in the green. In architectural visualisation, the model is maybe (I don't know how one works in that industry) not that detailed (no fillets and other small details are modelled).
By buffalo deal
#401296
I quickly get into your discussion, as I have been looking for a solution for years to get around this obstacle.

You can't compare a renderer based on real world physics and cameras like Maxwell does with other renderers that use some sort of magic trick to simulate chamfers/fillets. This somehow breaks this phylosophy of physically very close to reality that Maxwell wants to be.

Maxwell is unique.

I'm aware that it takes time to model everything in detail or create normal maps to fake it, but for now I don't know of any other solutions...even in the famous real-time rendering engines in the field, it's complicated to implement.

Cheers,

alex
User avatar
By Forester
#401297
dijiin, thank you for the video links. Thea Renderer seems to change the model via actual model-building processes. Very cool. Octane is not changing the polygons; just using the appearence presented by a shader (material). (Which explains why I couldn't find a beveling option in my copy of Octane.) Thank you for pointing these out.

This helps me. Probably doesn't much modify my basic point about tchnological changes in PBR making it harder and harder to get away with a substitute for actual modeled edges. But, it really is the case that lots of CAD tools lack the ability to bevel, chamfer or fillet edges. And this really is a true problem for those developing a precision-drawn object with these kinds of tools, and wishing it to appear photo-realistic in a PBR rendering engine.

Part of the reason that I comment on this is that a considerable part of my professional income comes from working for architectural houses that need models made with Autodesk Revit, MAX or less complicated CAD tool converted into more detailed models that can be rendered in a more photo-realistic manner. Pretty much, I have to completely rebuild these models in Maya, plus UV map them in Maya to accomplish this. Tedious work, but it puts bread on the table. I do try to keep informed about every new thing that might help resolve this issue. But having a LOT of experience with Revit, Max and Maya, this is why I say that these tools are all necessary for their purposes, but on intractiably different development paths.

Gold stars to you, Alex, for your comments !!!!!
By Andreas Hopf
#401299
"But, it really is the case that lots of CAD tools lack the ability to bevel, chamfer or fillet edges."

No.

Creo, SolidWorks, Fusion 360, Alias, Catia, Siemens NX, Rhino... filleting edges of parts where warranted, whether with curvature continuity or without, has always been available in CAD.
User avatar
By Forum Moderator
#401302
Currently, the only plugin that offers such an option is the plugin for FormZ. It's not something that Maxwell offers at the moment but was coded by the plugin developer making the most of some FormZ tools: https://nextlimitsupport.atlassian.net/ ... +Roundover

Usually, that is done by bending the normals artificially at the hard edges of the geometry (so the geometry is not really modified. I think it would be something quite comfortable for very small details, but for big bevels, it would look too fake.
I'll push for this feature if I see the chance, as it could save a lot of work.

Cheers!
Fernando
By buffalo deal
#401307
Hi guys,

Thank you very much for your comments, it's always interesting to study everyone's point of view.

For me maxwell is not built to fake.

That's why I've always trusted its algorithms for years to really see what it's going to look like once built in real life and especially with the right light.
Maxwell is a precision tool where you can impute values that are derived from real-world scientific units.

The other engines, there is a certain part of artistry, we must find fine values with variable names which correspond only to this engine.

That said, I am not against a development to implement this function which will save us a lot of complications...but
even today it's complicated to implement this in a rendering algorithm, because if the camera is too close to the subject, the result will be completely wrong.

Be well guys!

alex
User avatar
By Forum Moderator
#401310
Thank you, Alex.

Yes, I'd also prefer a geometric modification over the normal bending solution. In the case of FormZ, the plugin is generating real geometry thanks to FormZ's fantastic tools and not just bending the normals. I wanted to clarify that point because it was not clear in my previous post.

Cheers!
Fernando
By djiin
#401324
+1 for best results the workflow should be:

don't use cad for rendering but instead redraw everything in polygons and of course add your beveling etc..

in reality it is often not like this, when you design (I design my stuff in Alias) you always need to check your WIP by just do a quick render, you don't have the time to redraw everything in poly/quads for sure but having bevelled edges help you to have a bit more realistic renders. Either just bevel your geometries in SolidWorks or so takes too much time, sure you can do it in Alias as some here mentioned but come on, you never did it if you say it is easy and quick.

Anyway, even when your design is done, you just convert your cad to poly to do the renders, you almost never redraw it unless you render for press or commercial images.

Having this round corner feature would really help, thanks Fernando.
Will there be a Maxwell Render 6 ?

Let's be realistic. What's left of NL is only milk[…]